How hot did they get?
 

When I loaded the car up on the truck after the track day at Collie Denver and I were looking at the brakes on my car. Fair to say they are stuffed.

To be fair the pedal still feels fine and there was no fade or mushy pedal...however look at the photo below.

Car is a MY99 STI type RA (read no ABS) with autronics and an exhaust.

Rotors are DBA 5000 and Pads are Ferodo FS3000.

Since installation car has done the following

2x Days @ wanneroo
1x Days @ collie
1x Afternoon @ Belmont
4x Mornings @ AHG

Car does not get driven on the road. I.e. trucked to and from events.

Fair to say total mileage somewhere around 500km's.

[IMG]http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g161/urabus99_photos/P1010405.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g161/urabus99_photos/P1010402.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g161/urabus99_photos/P1010401.jpg[/IMG]

You can see how some of the metal has melted and started to fill the grooves.

You can also see the colour changing paint has all but gone.

Out of interest does anyone know at what temperature the paint is meant to change.

Logic is that this is a little excessive.

Considering that Rotors (hats are reusable) and pads are around $1k a pop I think I will fit a hydraulic handbrake and then fit the front rotors on the back and buy something substantial for the front. It will pay off in the long run.

In the mean time I will take the rotor gaurds off the back of the rotors to try and let a bit more cooling in.

Cheers

Brendon

The grooves are definately interesting to me. However, I think it may come down to these 3 things:

1). The type of pads- 3000's, while effective at higher temps really are aggressive on these types of rotors
2). Your braking style while doing multi-lap events (like Collie/ Wanneroo etc)- eg aggression!
3). An absence of effective brake ducting...

I run DBA5000's also, but have been using DS2500's etc. While I get some minor grooving and heat spots, after a multilap event this has generally been remedied by giving them a light scrub with a course wet n dry afterwards... I have also used brake ducting which comes in through the old fog lamp holes and ends up ramming air straight into the middle of the rotors. This makes a substantial difference when doing multilap stuff! (Heat is always the enemy with braking etc).

As for your slots... I reckon it's just a case of them getting low enough to start grinding away the grooves. I know Al and my own rotors are starting to do the same mate! Either that, or if they are still thick enough it'll be the sheer force of the DS3000 compound and the unequal distribution of pressure in the WRX 4pots.
(Ever noticed AP and Alcon designs have larger to smaller pistons in the caliper block? This is to prevent this uneven pad wear etc).

From dba.com.au

====

Does the heat paint return to its original colour?

The thermo graphic heat paint used in DBA 4000 and DBA 5000 series disc rotors has been developed to measure the actual bulk temperature of the disc when operating at the most extreme condition.

This peak condition is reached when the vehicle is in full motion with the brakes engaged. To enable an accurate measurement to be recorded, it is essential that the heat monitoring paint makes a permanent change at this critical point in braking.

If the paint were to return to its original colour as it cooled you would not achieve a true indication of the peak temperature as the disc can reduce in temperature by more than one hundred degrees Celsius before you have time to stop and check the reading.

The three paint stripes on these DBA performance rotors are;

Green 458˚C (856˚F) Changes to white
Orange 550˚C (1022˚F) Changes to yellow
Red 630˚C (1166˚F) Changes to white

In order for this colour change to occur, the disc rotor mass must reach the relevant bulk temperature for 10 minutes. This ensures that the colour change does occur from the much higher surface temperatures which do not penetrate through the disc material and affect its mechanical properties.
|
The ideal temperature condition for high performance brake pads and rotors is between 450˚C and 550˚C which is when the peak friction condition is achieved. This can be verified when the Green paint changes to white and the Orange paint has not changed or minimal change occurs on the outer edges.

If your driving conditions force the Orange paint to change to yellow then you should consider more a specialised high temperature pad compound, review the car setup or alter your driving style. When exposed to temperatures in excess of 630˚C (Red paint) permanent fatigue and stress concentration is greatly accelerated which may result in premature cracking or warping of the disc rotor. DBA does not warrant disc rotors that have been subjected to motor sport use.

Bulk Temperature is the temperature achieved through the full thickness of the material rather than surface temperatures that may be much higher but have less effect on the mechanical properties of the rotor material.

For the fronts, if you're serious .. You'd want to upgrade to an Alcon or AP Racing kit with bigger rotors, 330 or 370mm.

All depends on what your budgets are, what the plans for the car are .. and find a good bang for buck inbetween.

Have a look here: [url]http://www.rallysportdirect.com/shop/brakes-big-brake-kits-c-21_25_28_332.html[/url]

Lots of nice things :)

Im no expert... but your 3000 pads are going to eat rotors!!! thats what they are designed to do!! Hence you had good pedal feel all day and no fade. I would recomend trying some different pads first before going the big brake upgrade$$$.

* Ferrodo DS2500
* Project M
* EBC Green

+1 for the DS2500's with no ABS.
I rekon the Ferodo FS3000 are a bit too excessive with Subaru 4 pots and DBA 4000/5000's.

J

[QUOTE=RichX]For the fronts, if you're serious .. You'd want to upgrade to an Alcon or AP Racing kit with bigger rotors, 330 or 370mm.

All depends on what your budgets are, what the plans for the car are .. and find a good bang for buck inbetween.

Have a look here: [url]http://www.rallysportdirect.com/shop/brakes-big-brake-kits-c-21_25_28_332.html[/url]

Lots of nice things :)[/QUOTE]

I want to keep the car eligible for targa so that means I have to keep 16" wheels. This sort of restricts what I can use.

As for pads....I am going to go back to the old faithful....Pagid Blues.

Brendon

Brendon

I'm sure it's the pads mate...I use 5000's but with DS2500.
The 5000's I have on the MY06 are off my old MY02 (albeit different top hats) and have had about 16 months worth of use and are only just starting to get low on the grooves...plus the rotor surface is pretty smooth, unlike yours. Then add in the fact that you drive WAY more aggressively than me.
So there you have it!

Brendon,

My 4000's and 3000 setup looked exactly the same after that day at Collie. The slots on the rotors have actually started filling themselves in with molten rotor material :eek:

I'm glad you posted this up because I considered going to 5000's to help remedy the problem, but I see it ends up the same anyway. I have run 2500's in the past but around Waneroo I have noticed they will start to go off. The 3000's stay on song, but yer, I guess the price you pay is a munched rotor or two.

In terms of calipers that fit under the 16's, I know that waaaay back, Duke Ting ran an AP caliper that 'just' squeezed under a 16" - 5 spoke Suby rim. One of the ole' timers on here might know the details.

Alex

good ol dukey!

[QUOTE=GETAGRIP]Brendon,
In terms of calipers that fit under the 16's, I know that waaaay back, Duke Ting ran an AP caliper that 'just' squeezed under a 16" - 5 spoke Suby rim. One of the ole' timers on here might know the details.

Alex[/QUOTE]

I am going to talk to Michael South from over east. He put some massive brakes on Tony Sullens car for Targa Tas (i.e. under 16's) and can hopefully point me in the right direction.

The fact the rotors are munched does not concern me too much. I spose it is a compromise. Figured if I go large then hopefully there is something out there that will last a little longer than the DBA stuff.

Brendon

They look like my rotors, copped an absolute hammering on the weekend. They got that hot it turnt the red writing 'Brembo' on my callipers to black and its not changing back.........I am running EBC reds on stock rotors. Time for rotor upgrade.

[QUOTE=PIGSTi]They look like my rotors, copped an absolute hammering on the weekend. They got that hot it turnt the red writing 'Brembo' on my callipers to black and its not changing back.........I am running EBC reds on stock rotors. Time for rotor upgrade.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, the red Brembo writing on mine went black (or extremely dark red) ages ago...plus the gold colour also darkens...and no, they don't change back.
I remember the Brembos on Dean's Subaru Motorsport Targa West car last year were brownish rather than gold.

And Brendon, I suggest you talk to MMS if you want to get some upgraded calipers...as per Dean's rally car.

This is interesting.

I should have looked at the colour markers on mine last night. I found my DBA4000 / Ferodo 2500 combination crap at Collie. Fine for a couple of laps only. When I came into a corner at nearly the top of 4th and the brake pedal did nothing, it was quite a brown moment. (Must say I haven't done long track for a while, so I was braking more than normal on the first few laps which cooked the brakes early in the day). Because of this, I was looking at the 3000's.

Interesting that the 3000's were braking fine, but chewing rotors. Guess its a compromise one must take.

Is there an alternative rotor to the DBA that might hold up better?

[QUOTE=Kato]Is there an alternative rotor to the DBA that might hold up better?[/QUOTE]

Project MU?

[QUOTE=Kato]This is interesting.

I should have looked at the colour markers on mine last night. I found my DBA4000 / Ferodo 2500 combination crap at Collie. Fine for a couple of laps only. When I came into a corner at nearly the top of 4th and the brake pedal did nothing, it was quite a brown moment. (Must say I haven't done long track for a while, so I was braking more than normal on the first few laps which cooked the brakes early in the day). Because of this, I was looking at the 3000's.

Interesting that the 3000's were braking fine, but chewing rotors. Guess its a compromise one must take.

Is there an alternative rotor to the DBA that might hold up better?[/QUOTE]

Have you upgraded your fluid?

[QUOTE=nauli]Have you upgraded your fluid?[/QUOTE]

Fluid changes are happening shortly (as I can't remember whats in there at the moment :eek: ). To be honest, I think that played some part in it, but pulling into the pits with the brakes smoking away makes me think I cooked them early on.

[QUOTE=BALISTC]Project MU?[/QUOTE]

brembo ap? :)

Scuff the rotors, do a fluid change and throw in some pagids. I've been running the oranges on factory calipers/rotors at wanners till they were glowing. I'd get 10 laps on long @ wanners before they'd begin to fail. (of course thats on the porka, but i think the pad material on 3k's are shitting themselves and filling your rotors - purely speculative of course)

You can squeeze 330mm rotors with AP or Alcon calipers if you want to go the whole hog.

Dont bother with the homologated STI brake setup ala Dean Herridge's car as a) it'll cost a bomb b) it designed to fit under 15" rally wheels so you'll be losing another 25mm of rotor diameter.

My first step would be to get the rotors skimmed, flush the fluid and throw in a different set of pads. I'll be ordering some Galfer 1065 pads later this week. They're meant to be very good fast road/track work pad which work well from low temps. PM me if you want pricing.

[QUOTE=JMAX]You can squeeze 330mm rotors with AP or Alcon calipers if you want to go the whole hog. [/QUOTE]

I know the 330mm AP that was on the RA will NOT fit behind a 16" stock rim.

[QUOTE=urabus]I want to keep the car eligible for targa so that means I have to keep 16" wheels. This sort of restricts what I can use.

[/QUOTE]

The MMS Liberty RS that runs in targa has upgraded rims (17" WRX rims) and Brembos. I don't see why a change in wheel size would affect you in regards to eligibility to enter your car into targa.

Why not give the event organisers an email to confirm? Let them know what you would like to do (i.e. AP's and bigger rims) and whether it will affect your car's eligibiltiy...

[QUOTE=rspct]The MMS Liberty RS that runs in targa has upgraded rims (17" WRX rims) and Brembos. I don't see why a change in wheel size would affect you in regards to eligibility to enter your car into targa.

Why not give the event organisers an email to confirm? Let them know what you would like to do (i.e. AP's and bigger rims) and whether it will affect your car's eligibiltiy...[/QUOTE]
They got away with 17" wheels on the lib because they found it had been homogated with 17" wheels for track racing..

as for the RA, it probably has a larger homolgated wheel, like an 18" but the cost of the rubber for those wheels becomes a problem..

given you can stick a 330mm rotor and good calliper behind a 16" wheel, its easier to head that way and easier to comply to the rules than dicking around trying to find old homolgation specs for the car

[QUOTE=rspct]The MMS Liberty RS that runs in targa has upgraded rims (17" WRX rims) and Brembos. I don't see why a change in wheel size would affect you in regards to eligibility to enter your car into targa.

Why not give the event organisers an email to confirm? Let them know what you would like to do (i.e. AP's and bigger rims) and whether it will affect your car's eligibiltiy...[/QUOTE]

Also I was talking about Targa Tasmania. I think the rules for Targa west are somewhat more lax.

I figured that if Michael South and Tony Sullens could not work it out then I should probably not bother.

Other advantage with 16's are that they reduce the unsprung weight ovre 17 & 18's.

Brendon

I figured that if Michael South and Tony Sullens could not work it out then I should probably not bother.

Other advantage with 16's are that they reduce the unsprung weight ovre 17 & 18's.

Brendon[/QUOTE]

Running a 17" rim should not make a difference in Targa West. Wheels & tyres are open in all classes as long as they are road legal?? Tony Sullens squezed V8 supercar brakes into his GC8 for targa tas which = 1st place :D

I would not worry about the weight difference. I know Jamie Lister is a big fan of the 16" X 8 but then you have to deal with tyres and if you dammage one they are as rare as rocking horse shit!!!

Jamie Lister also runs Dukes old AP setup so be worth having a look at them.

Your rotors dont look too bad to me brendan. When you have cracks 1mm+ wide running from the centre all the way to the outside and the pedal shudders when you hit it, its time to replace them. :)

Personally in the short term, pulling off the backing plates and maybe some ducting might help on the multi lap stuff.

And on that note Adrian, JL is running AP calipers @ front and they clear as far as i know... Peter Herd (down south member) is running Alcon's on 16's off top of my head (correct me if im wrong)

edit: beat me to it Blaise :P

[QUOTE=CDR RA]
Your rotors dont look too bad to me brendan. When you have cracks 1mm+ wide running from the centre all the way to the outside and the pedal shudders when you hit it, its time to replace them. :)
[/QUOTE]

I have cracked a 4000 rotor driving on the road in my old rex. That is an interesting experience. The still tracked fine but massive wobble through the steering wheel :o .

[QUOTE=EXPLICIT]Scuff the rotors, do a fluid change and throw in some pagids. I've been running the oranges on factory calipers/rotors at wanners till they were glowing. I'd get 10 laps on long @ wanners before they'd begin to fail. (of course thats on the porka, but i think the pad material on 3k's are shitting themselves and filling your rotors - purely speculative of course)[/QUOTE]

I'd be inclined to agree with Jamie. As stated earlier, my 'grooves'/ worn lines are much less noticeable with only the usual glazing. But I did only use 2500's. With the price increase in 2500's, I am also now considering Pagid Blues as an all rounder... they are also a LOT kinder on rotors in comparison to 3000's. ;)

[QUOTE=CDR RA] Personally in the short term, pulling off the backing plates and maybe some ducting might help on the multi lap stuff.[/QUOTE]

Again I gotta sing high praises about effective ducting! If the heat is taken away, think of the possibilities with re: pads, rotors etc?!! It's probably the main reason why I've got away with only running 2500's at multi lap events!!

[QUOTE=BALISTIC]...Project Mu?[/QUOTE]

Don't you mean Project 'Meh'?! :D