Crappy E85 at Osborne Park!
 

Hi all just a quick public service announcement...

There is a problem with the tank or the pump at United Osborne Park. The E85 content has been reading around 70 at this station over the last month or so, for those who aren't flex tuned and only E85 tuned, please stay away.

I've notified the store owner of this with the proof and he is investigating his tank/pump etc...he will advise when it is fixed or has a date for the fix. That is the only United where the ECA has read less than the normal 79-81 range, everywhere else is fine.

Hope this post saves many ;)

Pump e85 = Peasant fuel :p

Righto RJ......

I go through 110L per week at the moment & 90% of my fuel comes from Osb Park & 10% from the Hepburn Ave. site, most recently pumped in 42L at Osb. Park at 4pm today.

My AFR's today are showing the same as the day I tuned my car (3 months ago) on the permanently mounted wideband system in my car.

If the unleaded component of the fuel was substantially higher than it should be then I'd be showing WAY richer AFR's than tuned.........But it's not it's still 11.4:1 WOT at 22psi.

That's the beauty of tuning non-flex on E85.....If you fill with another fuel by mistake your car will be PIG rich & make no power (at least 30% over fuelling).

Why did it take a month to tell us?

P.s The problem would be at the refinery (if there was one) - seeing as that's where E85 is blended.

A low ethanol content would have nothing to do with the boswer or the tank at the actual service station.

[QUOTE=Rossco;830717]P.s The problem would be at the refinery (if there was one) - seeing as that's where E85 is blended.

A low ethanol content would have nothing to do with the boswer or the tank at the actual service station.[/QUOTE]

Not necessarily the case;

There is always the possibility that some muppet fuel tanker driver pumped fuel other than E85 into the tank.

[QUOTE=XT43;830714]Why did it take a month to tell us?[/QUOTE]
As I wanted to be sure and the first couple of times I thought it could the car's fuel tank or something...also didn't want to say anything without proof and without talking to the station owner first. Test was done by filling up at ozzy park where it read 70 and going straight to gnangara to fill up again where it brought the Ethanol content to 80% on the same day.
[QUOTE=type25;830738]Not necessarily the case;

There is always the possibility that some muppet fuel tanker driver pumped fuel other than E85 into the tank.[/QUOTE]
Yeah you're on the money here, they have had their tank cleaned in the first week september where their e85 pump was offline for a few days, I believe that was the result of some muppet doing exactly that...the owner wouldn't say why...

Rossco - do you have an Ethanol Content Analyzer? Test was done with a friend's car that has a Zeitronix ECA.
I had noticed that my car wouldn't feel as good when filling up at osborne park sometimes so we decided to test it.

Jacob Ayres - if you reading this maybe you should go get a reading from your ECA at ozzy park when you get a chance next to see what you get.

Well I guess this could potentially explain why my car has jumped to 18afr on idle/ cruise for the last 3-4 tanks of fuel if this is true. Did spark plugs this morning, didn't fix it, and has new coilpacks. Splutters before boost and sounds misfiry on idle.

[QUOTE=N1GHTH4WK92;830742]Well I guess this could potentially explain why my car has jumped to 18afr on idle/ cruise for the last 3-4 tanks of fuel if this is true. Did spark plugs this morning, didn't fix it, and has new coilpacks. Splutters before boost and sounds misfiry on idle.[/QUOTE]

It would go Richer (lower AFR number) if the ethanol content was lower than it should be i.e the fuel has a higher unleaded percentage.

[QUOTE=Rossco;830743]It would go Richer (lower AFR number) if the ethanol content was lower than it should be i.e the fuel has a higher unleaded percentage.[/QUOTE]

Fuck. It goes to like 11 or 12ish on full boost. Sits at 22+ on rot/idle. Has only started sitting at 18 pretty recently, fuck knows what's causing that then...

[QUOTE=RJ999;830741]
Rossco - do you have an Ethanol Content Analyzer? Test was done with a friend's car that has a Zeitronix ECA.
[/QUOTE]

Nope - completely unnecessary if you know how to read a wideband & have an accurate system (I have a Techedge 2J - same as All Star use on every tune) & the difference between E85 & E70 is 3 octane points i.e Fuck all.

Australian E85 standard excerpt From [URL="https://www.comlaw.gov.au/Search/E85"]https://www.comlaw.gov.au/Search/E85[/URL]:

"E85, as it is commonly known worldwide, [B]is a blend of between 70 and 85 per cent by volume ethanol[/B] and the remainder petrol. In summer, internationally, E85 contains 85 per cent ethanol. [B]In mild climates, such as much of Australia, E85 usually contains 70 per cent ethanol in the winter months as the larger petrol component allows cold starts[/B]. For very cold winters overseas, the ethanol proportion is lowered to 50 per cent. Despite the seasonal variation in the ethanol proportion, the fuel is still typically referred to internationally as ‘E85’."

Sorry to break it to you RJ, there is no problem with the fuel. The octane rating is no lower than 105 (E70) and no higher that 108 (E85) in Australia.

[QUOTE=N1GHTH4WK92;830744]Fuck. It goes to like 11 or 12ish on full boost. Sits at 22+ on rot/idle. Has only started sitting at 18 pretty recently, fuck knows what's causing that then...[/QUOTE]

My rotational hovers between 23-25 which is normal due to the rotational fuel cut at idle (pumps lots of cool air through the motor).

I tuned for 11.4:1 above 1 bar of boost.

Your not seeing the 18's at very light throttle on over run by chance?

[QUOTE=Rossco;830746]My rotational hovers between 23-25 which is normal due to the rotational fuel cut at idle (pumps lots of cool air through the motor).

I tuned for 11.4:1 above 1 bar of boost.

Your not seeing the 18's at very light throttle on over run by chance?[/QUOTE]

What do you mean by over run? It will sit up at like 18 when just cruising at pretty much any speed.

Over run as in being just on the throttle rolling down a hill or coasting.

What wideband controller do you have? How old is your sensor?

[QUOTE=Rossco;830748]Over run as in being just on the throttle rolling down a hill or coasting.

What wideband controller do you have? How old is your sensor?[/QUOTE]

Ah k, yeah stays around the same. And innovate, it's maybe 3 months old. Unsure if calibrated for E85 or 98 though. Hasn't been installed in the way I asked so I can't access the plug to recalibrate it.

There's no recalibration needed between the 2 fuel types.

How far away from the turbo, Cats (if you have any) os the sensor located?

Probably no problem with the fuel Rossco but I would rather fill up at stations where Im getting the extra 3 octanes to 107 instead of E70...there is something in the tank that's lowering the content at ozzy park as proven, but its not a problem as such I guess... its like having your car tuned for 98 Premium then filling up with Unleaded 95...fuck that!
Also that statement you posted above is for generic e85 not the uniteds pumping "Race Blend" I believe which is meant to be guaranteed to deliver 107 octane without any lower variations than 107?

Lexia, Osi Park, Ellenbrook and Padbury are all mean to be "Race Fuel''. That's what they said when I rang them anyway.

Padbury is not listed on their website though....

That will be my closest station, as of tomorrow.

Correct and race blend is meant to be a guaranteed minimum of 107 octane as I understand it.

Problem solvered.... ;-)

.... [ATTACH]15400[/ATTACH]


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How much is a tank like that?

[QUOTE=RJ999;830752]Probably no problem with the fuel Rossco but I would rather fill up at stations where Im getting the extra 3 octanes to 107 instead of E70...there is something in the tank that's lowering the content at ozzy park as proven, but its not a problem as such I guess... its like having your car tuned for 98 Premium then filling up with Unleaded 95...fuck that!
Also that statement you posted above is for generic e85 not the uniteds pumping "Race Blend" I believe which is meant to be guaranteed to deliver 107 octane without any lower variations than 107?[/QUOTE]

RJ, Pure ethanol (E100%) has a RON rating of 108.6.

Have you not noticed the the 107 OCTANE bowsers do not have '107RON' written anywhere on them?
Australia uses 'Research Octane Rating' to label fuels - not 'Octane'.....

But you've missed the point - The octane rating of E85 is in the region of 105(+/-), but when combined with its cooling properties, the actual knock resistance of E85 is much higher than the RON rating would suggest, it's nothing like 95 v's 98 - the fuels behave completely differently inside your motor.

In plain English this means that when E85 is injected into the engine, it goes through a phase change from liquid to gas and during this process it absorbs a lot of heat from the intake charge. A colder intake charge is denser and improves power, but also has the effect of making the engine far less prone to detonation..... Unless your tuner is a muppet.

Stop stressing about 'E85' ethanol content.........You're on a witch hunt.......... all you're doing is showing your lack of understanding on the subject.

Remember United's P100? Well that was simply 98RON with 10% ethanol.

TL;DR: As was mentioned already there is very little difference in the detonation resistance of e70 and e85. The difference is less than one octane point. In other words, don't sweat the difference.

Retail is about $3 a litre I think..


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[QUOTE=nick73;830753]Lexia, Osi Park, Ellenbrook and Padbury are all mean to be "Race Fuel''. That's what they said when I rang them anyway.

Padbury is not listed on their website though....

That will be my closest station, as of tomorrow.[/QUOTE]

All e85 on pump is race blend .. enjoy ....



As for e70 look at yhe side of the pump it says may vary in ethanol content 70-85%..........

[QUOTE=Rossco;830757]RJ, Pure ethanol (E100%) has a RON rating of 108.6.

Have you not noticed the the 107 OCTANE bowsers do not have '107RON' written anywhere on them?
Australia uses 'Research Octane Rating' to label fuels - not 'Octane'.....

But you've missed the point - The octane rating of E85 is in the region of 105(+/-), but when combined with its cooling properties, the actual knock resistance of E85 is much higher than the RON rating would suggest, it's nothing like 95 v's 98 - the fuels behave completely differently inside your motor.

In plain English this means that when E85 is injected into the engine, it goes through a phase change from liquid to gas and during this process it absorbs a lot of heat from the intake charge. A colder intake charge is denser and improves power, but also has the effect of making the engine far less prone to detonation..... Unless your tuner is a muppet.

Stop stressing about 'E85' ethanol content.........You're on a witch hunt.......... all you're doing is showing your lack of understanding on the subject.

Remember United's P100? Well that was simply 98RON with 10% ethanol.

TL;DR: As was mentioned already there is very little difference in the detonation resistance of e70 and e85. The difference is less than one octane point. In other words, don't sweat the difference.[/QUOTE]

OK that makes sense and good to know that its nothing to worry much about...I won't stop using osborne park but I'll still go fill at gnangara or padbury before a track day as the fuel seems to keep better there as proven.

[quote=kremer930;830756]how much is a tank like that?[/quote]

205 liters

This stuff seems nice enough.

But i'm not really in a position to comment yet I've only managed 0.5bar and 4800rpm so far :D

[img]http://www.scoob.co.uk/blackhawk/fuelsystem/properfuel.jpg[/img]

[QUOTE=dazdavies;830762]This stuff seems nice enough.

But i'm not really in a position to comment yet I've only managed 0.5bar and 4800rpm so far :D

[img]http://www.scoob.co.uk/blackhawk/fuelsystem/properfuel.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]

It's good Juice!

Smash in 1.7bar & bring the timing up to around 13-14 degrees on boost......And hang on haha!

I'll be throwing 2.1bar through it. None of this baby boost you speak of :D Lets hope my sleeves hold up LOL

haha...... is ten seconds how fast it will be or how long it will last?


Just joking :p

Sounds like life is much less stressful in my gauge-less wrx. I just fill up and put my foot down :D

might explain why i had a slight issue 2 weeks ago, filled at Osborne Park and went out to RAC was missing at about 6200rpm

Another 30 litres added from Osb Park today - drove 100km zero changes noted.

Been advised today that whatever the issue was, it is now resolved... Ethanol read 81 today.

p.s: I suspect it is the tank cleaning that took place in the first week of September to be what caused the ethanol content to drop over the weeks that followed...

Just a note , there is a reason bowser fuel is shit no matter where you get it and there is a reason race teams don't fill their cars up at servos . If you want consistency it comes in a barrel with testing to confirm its what your getting.

A giant tank in the ground pretty much unfiltered , vented to air run nearly dry and filled up all the time . Grab 20l can of race ethanol and compare it to 20l from a bowser in a jerry can run through the bowser by filtering it with filter paper .

Want consistency buy drum fuel .

Fixed.

[QUOTE=Rossco;830800]Another 30 litres added from Osb Park today - drove 100km zero changes noted. Drove back to refill tank because 30 litres was gone...[/QUOTE]

^^^lol^^^

It's a complete pain in the arse for me to get e85. One of the first things i'm going to do is get a 98 tune. E85 will be mainly for drag and track. How much does a 200L barrel of E85 delivered cost anyone know?

200L drum of Power Plus is $460. PM baylee he had had a drum or two delivered.