New Engine Build Questions
 

My car just died a couple nights ago and after some testing today I think i can confirm that the head gaskets have shat themselves. :-( So this unfortunate event has accelerated my plans on the new engine build my dad and I are doing.

The project consists of forged internals and an EJ22 and we have just a couple questions.

1. Because we are boring the EJ22 out to 97.5mm which is 0.020" overbore, will EJ22 metal head gaskets work or will we have to go with EJ25 metal head gaskets? I believe EJ25 gaskets are 101mm and i do not know how big EJ22 ones are. Can any one shed any light?

2. Is it worth making the engine semi closed deck?

In the end of this project the car will hopefully be my daily driver with some track racing whenever I get the chance.

Cheers all,
Geoff

Geoff,

why not get a ej20 block from a RS? closed deck from factory. bore that out to 2.2.

We already have 2 EJ22's. :-P How much would a RS EJ20 bottom end cost?

Why not grab AN EJ207, semi closed deck and get some forged internals for that or bore it out..

that 207 is gone already ;)

Cool.

The deck is the surface where the head is bolted too.

[IMG]http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h90/Taktics/blockdesign.jpg[/IMG]

The open deck design is for ease of manufacturing and not good for high cylinder pressures. This cylinder wall design is supported in 2 places. Many people will say that these engines cannot be turboed effectively but that is not the case. There are a couple here in the club that have run low to medium boost without issue. The problem is where the top of the cylinder where it meets the head will distort from high cylinder pressure and damage the head gaskets ability to seal in the combustion gases.

A semi closed deck design is a little harder to manufacture, but supports the cylinder at the top, bottom and sides. (four places). This is stronger then the open deck design and therefore can take higher cylinder pressures.

The fully closed deck design uses a different casting process that takes longer to manufacture and weighs more. These blocks have the most support to the cylinders, which will enable you to run the highest cylinder pressure of the available choices.

Subaru introduced the closed deck block for homologation reasons to be able to run it in their rally cars. This engine was made famous when a very similar version to it was installed in the limited edition 22B. With the casting methods and alloys available at the time Subaru chose this route to ensure a strong motor. With todays “modern” casting methods and alloys even the semi closed deck designed motors are very strong.

As a guide I would say the following;

Open deck blocks will work for all NA or low to medium boost applications.

Semi closed deck blocks are better suited for boost applications that are not extremely high or prolonged.

Closed deck block are best suited for applications where there will be very high boost for extended periods of time.


Good read - understood abit more about this open-semi-closed deck business.

But I heard that semi/closed deck engines can have heating issues because there is no coolant around where the explosions in the engine are. But I will be making the new engine semi-closed by putting in some bits of magnesium or something between the cylinders, giving it the extra strength.

Also, in my opinion, boring the EJ207 or EJ20 will leave not enough of the cylinder left and will weaken the actual block. While boring the EJ22 to 97.5mm will only take 1mm from each side of the cylinder, hopefully keeping it strong. I guess if I wanted the strongest block possible I would sleeve it, but i'm still a uni student and do not have that much funds. :-D

So whats the purpose of building ??

No point doing all the above if is only for street/drags etc etc

207 that is all, simple bolt on cheap, and all the goodies you need.

ive seen the rs blocks go from $50 - $300.

[QUOTE='[REXZIST]']EJ207, that is all[/QUOTE]
Very strong bottom end that already has forged pistons, semi-closed, supports 350awhp all day, everyday, doesn't need modified or special head gaskets, doesn't require machining etc etc. Cheapest and best way to go about it IMHO. Spend your money on getting air & fuel into and out of the cylinder heads. I'm talking 264 cms, porting, decapped injectors, fuel pump, headers.

'Nuff said :)

Hmm, so many decisions! :o

i think your best bet is to slap a fresh EJ207 short motor into your car and be done with it. installed and tuned properly they can support 400+ hp and 2bar+ boost. As above, arleady got forged pistons, semi closed etc.

ps, if you think boring a 2L gives thin walls, look at a 2.5 block..

Fresh EJ207 for the win.

P.S. semi-closed deck blocks have absolutely zero cooling issues....you'll know what I'm talking about if you ever look at one in person, the "semi closed deck" part of the block (the reinforcing ribs that are attached between the block and the bores, don't inhibit coolant flow at all.

[QUOTE=chee]Geoff,
why not get a ej20 block from a RS? closed deck from factory. bore that out to 2.2.[/QUOTE]Reality check:
Ok the RS EJ20 Fully Closed block is called an EJ20G for starters. An EJ20G block has a few short falls that people should be aware of.
1) They are rare and getting fairly old.
2) They take a Phase I crank. These only have 48mm wide big end bearings as opposed to the phase 2 EJ20K at 52mm.
3) These also have the main thrust bearing at no 3 position instead of the no 5 position. This can cause crank walk... a not so good experience.
4) Cranks are not as readily available or as well priced as they are for the phase 2.
5) Making a stroker motor, i.e using a Phase 1, 2.5 L crank, with the EJ20G requires custom rods...a not so cheap experience.
6) They come standard at a bore of 92 mm, a 2.2 is 97mm from memory. This leaves very little room for error and I suggest would need to be sleeved to be safe. Boring out a fully closed block until it needs sleeving defeats the reason why you had a fully closed block to start with.
7) The EJ22T is the block of choice, and readily available in the States, alternately a closed deck EJ25 can now be sourced...try ESP in Canberra
8) An EJ20G has oil squirters that provide a spray of oil to the underside of the pistons. Many believe these just lower oil pressure and do very little else.
9) An EJ20G can be modified to take a phase II crank, at an extra cost of approximately $700 in Perth, ref Leigh H. @ RMS. Ouch!
10) An EJ207 is ready to go with a Phase II crank

By using a factory assembled semi closed EJ207 short motor that comes complete with a phase 2 crank, forged pistons, strong rods, OEM tolerances and quality for $2500 it is never going to be beaten for value. An EJ20G with a few other nice bits can still beat it on performance.

Awesome info. Thanks! EJ207 sounds win! :-D

If your going a EJ207 - u better buy one quick while they are still selling at $3500 (if theres any left).

When subaru orders another bunch - there gonna be nearly double becoz of the dollar

Cheap 207 & gasket here if you're quick - [url]http://www.rexnet.com.au/forum/index.php?showtopic=94170[/url]

good price!

That is an extremely good price.. given how much they are going for at Subaru. Be quick Geoff!

EJ22 block in the states are quite rare, hence Ron from RAW aint using them any more,
the latest 2.5 use a centre thrust crank i believe, hence they will drop into the early RS block
Theres plenty of RS motors that have done 300ks plus, with no overheating issues, that includes the early rally cars that had the shit flogged out of them.
to drop a rear end thrust crank into a early RS block, does not cost $700 for machining
the journals are the same size, but the early 2.5 centre thrust cranks had small journals in the N/A quad cam motors.....

geoff ...pm eric about it ;) he may be able to help you out

[QUOTE=flashrs]EJ22 block in the states are quite rare, hence Ron from RAW aint using them any more,
the latest 2.5 use a centre thrust crank i believe, hence they will drop into the early RS block
Theres plenty of RS motors that have done 300ks plus, with no overheating issues, that includes the early rally cars that had the shit flogged out of them.
to drop a rear end thrust crank into a early RS block, does not cost $700 for machining
the journals are the same size, but the early 2.5 centre thrust cranks had small journals in the N/A quad cam motors.....[/QUOTE]
What Ron Williams prefers is irrelevant to this discussion...I was just talking with Elvis and he said blah blah... :p
EJ22T blocks are easily sourced second hand, do a search on [URL=http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=149]NASIOC[/URL] for "EJ22T" and see the results.
Have they done a phase III 2.5l crank with center thrust? The phase I, is center thrust, the phase 2 has it at number 5. You can convert the block or the cranks to fit either. Only the phase II has the wider 52mm BE bearings.
I agree, it does not cost $700 for machining, but I deliberately said:
[QUOTE=maddog]9) An EJ20G can be modified to take a phase II crank, at an extra cost of approximately $700 in Perth, ref Leigh H. @ RMS. Ouch![/QUOTE] That was what RMS quoted to have the machining done! Double ouch!! Few shops in Perth will do it for a lay person off the street for less as they consider the information IP and are reluctant to share it. Please advise what your known cost is and your source if your going to criticise mine in future.

Hey All,

Did not have any spare cash lying around so i continued with the EJ22 project and I just got my pistons in the mail today :D

Anyone know the best place to get an engine bored?

who will be assembling it? i'd use their recommended machine shop

Dad and I have split the block, will be assembling it and swapping the engines ourselves. Just need boring done

ah .. well use your prefered machine shop then ...


:confused1

There is a place around the corners from Maximums...when I find the name I will post it up.
Great advice jEstEr :p

:P I think i'm going to get 'Performance Modifications' to do the boring. $300 including an acid dip clean, should be good.

BTW the EJ20 has a 7.193” standard block height, and original head height for MY99 is 5.020”. What were yours to start with? I guess they would be the same. Have you decided on a compression ratio as this will effect your head gasket choice?

If your looking for a new oil pump, try [URL=http://www.japanparts.com/db/partslist.php?dealer=1&car=115&middlesmall=1%3A1&maker=&volkey=113-037-15010]japanparts[/URL]
Put: "NASIOC12mm" in the PAYPAL comments and enjoy an extra 10% discount (assumes your a member of NASIOC) alternately shim your existing.

[QUOTE=jEstEr?]who will be assembling it? i'd use their recommended machine shop[/QUOTE]

Geoff,s has been hiding the fact that his dad is a machinest by trade & a long time motor builder. He has been building stroker motors for some time in motor bikes. I recall the turbo ford he built years a go straight 6 and would leave rubber for 3/4 of a k up the road.

I am looking forward to see the new motor in action & your dads work

seagull

geoff, can you ask your dad if he wants to help me build a 500cc 2 stroke bike? :D

Hi tech cylinder heads 9248 3008 Malaga.

Got it in to Performance Modifications this morning. Should be ready by Friday. :-)

Ordering all the seals and gaskets over the next couple of days and I should get the engine in over the Christmas break. After we get that in I need to upgrade the fuel rails and injectors, get a power fc and tune and also change over the gearbox. Cant wait for nolimits and cruises next year! :-D

Was talking to dad about that Ford recently, it would spin the wheels in top gear! One crazy car!

[QUOTE=Qu3xy]Got it in to Performance Modifications this morning. Should be ready by Friday. :-)

Ordering all the seals and gaskets over the next couple of days and I should get the engine in over the Christmas break. After we get that in I need to upgrade the fuel rails and injectors, get a power fc and tune and also change over the gearbox. Cant wait for nolimits and cruises next year! :-D

Was talking to dad about that Ford recently, it would spin the wheels in top gear! One crazy car![/QUOTE]

you gonna get some brakes too? :p surely at least $50 dolla 1's to replace the 30 dolla ones yeah

It has 4 pots on the front now

:-D They turned out great. There is no fading at all, the braided brake lines help too.

thats all you need.

4pots, braided lines, cylinder stopper, good fluid + pads + discs.

Hey all,

Pulled the engine out of the car today and it does look like all the cylinders were leaking. Hopefully getting the 2.2 in during the xmas break, then tuned! :-D

Here are the cranks i was going to put in. you can see one is actually bent!

[IMG]http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e334/Qu3xc4ll/DSC02495.jpg[/IMG]

And these are the bigends off that bent crank. 3 of 4 were spun with the 4th well on the way out. The block seems fine so i bored it out. :-D

[IMG]http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e334/Qu3xc4ll/DSC02503.jpg[/IMG]

New Pistons
[IMG]http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e334/Qu3xc4ll/DSC02507.jpg[/IMG]

Gearbox i need to put in as well
[IMG]http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e334/Qu3xc4ll/DSC02513.jpg[/IMG]

And its broken 2nd gear (Thanks Strubaru! :-D)
[IMG]http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e334/Qu3xc4ll/DSC02516.jpg[/IMG]

The bored 2.2ltr. I'll see how much displacement it actually is next week.
[IMG]http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e334/Qu3xc4ll/DSC02532.jpg[/IMG]

The old engine
[IMG]http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e334/Qu3xc4ll/DSC02547.jpg[/IMG]

The clutch
[IMG]http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e334/Qu3xc4ll/DSC02544.jpg[/IMG]

TD05-H! :D
[IMG]http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e334/Qu3xc4ll/DSC02558.jpg[/IMG]

The problem, massive carbon build up and blown head gaskets.
[IMG]http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e334/Qu3xc4ll/DSC02566.jpg[/IMG]
(This one was not as bad as the other side)
[IMG]http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e334/Qu3xc4ll/DSC02567.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e334/Qu3xc4ll/DSC02571.jpg[/IMG]

Just waiting for the new gaskets and overhaul kit with all the seals and gaskets now. should be Awesome!

nice one geoff.