TAIL Happy - is there such thing as too stiff ?
 

hey guys,

after installing my coilovers a few weeks ago, i was in Perth for 2 days this week away from work and luckily it was wet so i could finally test the handling out at the skid pan.
i thought id give it abit on corners and round abouts to see how well she would hold.

with the new suspension setup and tyres.... the tail just wanted to kick out if i yanked a tad too hard...

whats everyones opinion on this...is my setup too stiff...is there such thing as too stiff i always thought stiffer the better ?

im running -

whiteline strut brace
adjustable whiteline sways all round
whiteline bushes all thru (chassis is tight)
anti lift kit
BC racing inverted damper coilovers with the 30 way adj....

i have been playing with the 30 way dampening 0 being hardest and 30 being softest.... i had them on 0 and she was brilliant for handling but i could feel every ant on the road ;)

now i have them back at factory 8 they came shipped as. which is a little nicer to drive and handling as well.

has anyone got any recommendations on the settings ?

im wondering if its because i have brand new falkens tyres on there maybe they need to wear a little bit first for that extra traction...im not sure.

cheers

Sounds like the issue lies in the drivers seat

What are your alignment settings?
And you may want to soften the dampening on the rear shocks a little.

LOL - i have no doubt :P

i was giving it abit - i just expected it to hold a little better,... in the dry its crazy i can take 90 degree corner on boost and stick like glue.

might bite the bullet and put yoko advan sports back on or even a good set of federals

[QUOTE=teejay;633932]Sounds like the issue lies in the drivers seat[/QUOTE]

I have my rear suspension setup somewhat stiff, HSD's on 4 clicks from stiffest, 25mm rear sway bar, hd end links, 225 good jap rubber on 8.5inch rims, and she doesn't kick out very easily, even in the wet.

i got wa suspension to do it... i basically said i want it to drive straight..

i didnt want any camber... i figured with awd...and new tyres id be fine. plus i didnt want to sacrifice tread for camber.

settings - couldnt tell ya.

when im home next il soften the back then maybe by 2 clicks first....

ive been doing it with balance to the front...assuming that was the ebst for weight balance etc... but im clearly wrong so im open to suggestions

[QUOTE=Mister Two;633938]What are your alignment settings?
And you may want to soften the dampening on the rear shocks a little.[/QUOTE]

mmmm maybe im lacking the rubber ?

im running stock 205 still but they brand new falken 615's

what rubber you running?

[QUOTE=RichX;633941]I have my rear suspension setup somewhat stiff, HSD's on 4 clicks from stiffest, 25mm rear sway bar, hd end links, 225 good jap rubber on 8.5inch rims, and she doesn't kick out very easily, even in the wet.[/QUOTE]

Nitto Invo's, great tyre.

I ran Falken RT615's before these, and I thought they were total shit compared.

[IMG]http://www.torqueautoperformance.mx/images/invo%20nitto.jpg[/IMG]

You want to set the rear swaybar to the middle setting unless you are on a racetrack. You also want to soften the rear bump and rebound settings so that the rear will squat under acceleration slightly. You can aid this by having a "raked" stance which means having the rear sit 0.5 to an inch higher than the front. It's all about weight transfer and dynamics. A little bit of camber is also a good thing but not too much.

Just remember (at all times, not just when it's dry), you will have heaps of grip at compared-to-a-commodore insane speeds. It's when you go just that little bit too far or hit a mid bump corner and all hell breaks loose you realise that you are going waaaay too fast to do anything about it.

My advice would be do not drive like a cock on public roads. Save it for a track day where you can really exploit the car's abilities and maybe, just maybe, find out what your limits are.

wow they even look wicked...
never heard of them to be honest... il research them now.

i agree with the track / public roads... That's why I test at the track...

so lift the rear a tad and soften it out. at the moment i have the car exactly 25inchs from ground to arch all round mm for mm.

will -0.5 camber actually help?

thinking about it now that you mention it... when i was taking the corner it was bumpy... do you think because the setup is so stiff the springs didnt have enough time to react ? is that how it works?

[QUOTE=phizzle;633948]You want to set the rear swaybar to the middle setting unless you are on a racetrack. You also want to soften the rear bump and rebound settings so that the rear will squat under acceleration slightly. You can aid this by having a "raked" stance which means having the rear sit 0.5 to an inch higher than the front. It's all about weight transfer and dynamics. A little bit of camber is also a good thing but not too much.

Just remember (at all times, not just when it's dry), you will have heaps of grip at compared-to-a-commodore insane speeds. It's when you go just that little bit too far or hit a mid bump corner and all hell breaks loose you realise that you are going waaaay too fast to do anything about it.

My advice would be do not drive like a cock on public roads. Save it for a track day where you can really exploit the car's abilities and maybe, just maybe, find out what your limits are.[/QUOTE]

[url=http://www.1010tires.com/tires/reviews/Nitto/Invo]Nitto Invo Tire Reviews (21 Reviews)[/url]

the reviews seem great - can i ask what sort of mileage you have gotten so far on them. i got 36k on the yoko advans i was running which i spose is good for a soft compound.

[QUOTE=RichX;633947]Nitto Invo's, great tyre.

I ran Falken RT615's before these, and I thought they were total shit compared.

[IMG]http://www.torqueautoperformance.mx/images/invo%20nitto.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=ewrxion87;633940]in the dry its crazy i can take 90 degree corner on boost and stick like glue.[/QUOTE]
Please don't drive into a tree

Thanks Terry, its a good car i intend on keeping it that way :)

im a car enthusiast not a hoon


[QUOTE=Terry.Wrist;633961]Please don't drive into a tree[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=ewrxion87;633967]im a car enthusiast not a hoon[/QUOTE]
So am I but I have paperwork that says different :D

If you are loosing traction at 50kmh on a 'bout then there is something wrong. Full stock suspension setups are capable of better.

Nevertheless, sounds like you need to go to a tuning day whenever one is hosted next. The setup should be all good for you after that :)

Phizzle
- im not sure what you mean.... but anyays doesnt matter...il stay on topic

-Nighthawk92 - between the two of you...it seems like i need this track day to sort my problems out.

il need to start with softening the rear a little more and maybe raising it half an inch.
id prefer not to have it kicking out at the ass...otherwise i woulda bought rwd LOL

[QUOTE=ewrxion87;633972]it seems like i need this track day to sort my problems out.[/QUOTE]

Don't NEED it but it will solve your problem a lot quicker than trial and error whenever you get a chance to test it's capabilities.

Otherwise could take up drifting :D

Be very careful 'drift is addictive'

I prefer over steer to under steer.

Enjoy the ride responsibly in a safe area.

[QUOTE=StubbsR1;634019]I prefer over steer to under steer.[/QUOTE]
As someone's signature is "Oversteer scares the passengers, understeer scares the driver" :D

[QUOTE=ewrxion87;633957]so lift the rear a tad and soften it out. at the moment i have the car exactly 25inchs from ground to arch all round mm for mm.
[B]Measure from the centre of the wheel to the edge of the gaurd[/B]

will -0.5 camber actually help? [B]Yes but I'd be inclined to put the front on about -1.0, rear at -0.5. [/B]

thinking about it now that you mention it... when i was taking the corner it was bumpy... do you think because the setup is so stiff the springs didnt have enough time to react ? is that how it works?[/QUOTE]You're on the right track there.
If your setup is too stiff then when the tyre rides up on the bump it will have the effect of catapulting the tyre at the crest of the bump, at which time your tyre/s is/are no longer in contact with the road. Not good unless you are trying to do a jump. The tyre should ride up one side of the bump and then down the other maintaining contact, yet not be so soft that it's like driving the Rottnest Ferry.

Thread has had a bit of a tidy...

Good to see you tested this out at the track, not on public roads... As being a dipshit on public roads does not go well around here ;)

It sounds like your setup is completely stuffed.

If you are taking corners, you want camber on your tyres. This allows the tyre to have more contact area with the road whilst cornering.

You want your suspension to be quite soft actually. I have gone down the path of having rock hard, moob shaking suspension and it is not faster or better. On a smooth track surface, yes you can go harder. On road surfaces, stiff = bump = more chance of tyres leaving contact with the road.

Your alignment needs to be looked at. To be honest, anyone letting a Subaru out with no camber adjustment is silly. I would also look at your stiffness settings for the front and rear sway bars. What was your final toe setting and castor settings too? These also play a massive role in cornering.

Tyres will be a factor. 205 width isn't helping in wet conditions. Also a tyre that is sex in the dry can be shit in the wet, so do some research on that.

Basically everything you do, you want to have the maximum tyre contact area whilst in the corner. Tyre off the ground or not fully on the ground = more chance of slip happening.

Oversteer is great!

[QUOTE=RUSSGT;634108]4WD power sliding is great![/QUOTE]

Fixed Russ :)

kato - cheers for the information.... so softer is better for the road and stiffer is better for the track...in a nutshell ?

yes...track would have been better but like i say i wasnt hooning...anyways i was back from upnorth for 2 days only and needed to try and sort this out...

looks like il go and see wa suspension again and get them to adjust it accordingly... if softer is what i need il just adjust the dampening knob....
in terms of spring rate / rebound etc... thats well and truly above me so il need an expert to look at it. swaybars are on the middle setting out of the three available...this is what my tuner set them at.

in terms of camber - what do you recommend others above have said -0.5 - 1.0 etc...
is changing the dampening knob enough...or does spring rate and rebound all different things to be taken into account...in terms of an adjustment i can do...would dampening be enough ? IYO

im listening to everyones opinions as they are all valid from my angle.
thanks

[QUOTE=Kato;634095]Thread has had a bit of a tidy...

Good to see you tested this out at the track, not on public roads... As being a dipshit on public roads does not go well around here ;)

It sounds like your setup is completely stuffed.

If you are taking corners, you want camber on your tyres. This allows the tyre to have more contact area with the road whilst cornering.

You want your suspension to be quite soft actually. I have gone down the path of having rock hard, moob shaking suspension and it is not faster or better. On a smooth track surface, yes you can go harder. On road surfaces, stiff = bump = more chance of tyres leaving contact with the road.

Your alignment needs to be looked at. To be honest, anyone letting a Subaru out with no camber adjustment is silly. I would also look at your stiffness settings for the front and rear sway bars. What was your final toe setting and castor settings too? These also play a massive role in cornering.

Tyres will be a factor. 205 width isn't helping in wet conditions. Also a tyre that is sex in the dry can be shit in the wet, so do some research on that.

Basically everything you do, you want to have the maximum tyre contact area whilst in the corner. Tyre off the ground or not fully on the ground = more chance of slip happening.[/QUOTE]

haha i saw your youtube video, its more than impressing :P

i dont think i have enough power to do that, and the experience / confidence to drive like that.
very cool.

[QUOTE=RUSSGT;634108]Oversteer is great![/QUOTE]

**saw

**more [U][B]than[/B][/U]

thanks mate
i should of used pictionary to check my spelling......wait wait....i mean dictionary :D

[QUOTE=REXXXED;634135]**saw

**more [U][B]than[/B][/U][/QUOTE]

I would have maximum front camber (-1.5 to 2 deg) maximum rear camber (-1 deg), maximum front castor, front toe at 0, rear toe slightly in for stability.

I would also avoid excessively low cars as dropped on the floor actually makes your handling worse.

Suspension doesn't need to be super soft. Rock hard is useless unless you are running slicks. A nice medium comfort and stiffness is what you want. As for what that is, you need to find that out as it is a driver preference. All you need to do is change your damping knob. Spring rate is set as you already have springs in there, etc etc.

perfect, thanks kato... i get the general concept but when it comes to nitty gritty confusion sets in.

when im in Perth enxt i will fix this.if 0 is hardest and 30 is softest, i suppose the least i could do is meet half way at 15. im not 100% sure my coilovers allow camber at the rear unless i have camber bolts from factory.. my fronts no issue.

as for it low wise - on the flat its about a coke can plus a finger n abit... from the centre of the body kit

cheers

[QUOTE=Kato;634161]I would have maximum front camber (-1.5 to 2 deg) maximum rear camber (-1 deg), maximum front castor, front toe at 0, rear toe slightly in for stability.

I would also avoid excessively low cars as dropped on the floor actually makes your handling worse.

Suspension doesn't need to be super soft. Rock hard is useless unless you are running slicks. A nice medium comfort and stiffness is what you want. As for what that is, you need to find that out as it is a driver preference. All you need to do is change your damping knob. Spring rate is set as you already have springs in there, etc etc.[/QUOTE]

If you had it set up by Wa suspension, you will already have your front camber set at -1.0. I was with the old boy that does the alignments when I had my foz done and he said he puts a bit of camber on all subies. Rear camber on yours isn't adjustable. You just need to take it easier in the wet! I've had my foz let go on me and when it did, it kicked out twice as hard as commo utes I've owned. 4wd is better but when you reach the limit, shit happens real quick!

Im very happy with my setup and its very simple

My HSD coilovers(before it was yellowed) where set at medium to hard(12/16 clicks) setting on front and medium(8/16 clicks) on the rears
Front 2deg camber, max castor you can get, 0 toe
Rear 1.5deg camber and 0 toe(I think it was 0).
all set up by Wheelsworld

To add to that I have anti lift kit and a centre roll kit, front 21mm rear 22mm Cusco swaybars, next would be whiteline bushes...

and all mighty ling longs :) does mad skids, slightly more rear bias if than neutral which is good and bad, and having DCCD at 35:65 split with R180 2way STI diff also helps.

Rexxar - you got yellowed for coilovers? What was the excuse, too hard?

After seeing his car the other day. Very good chance it was for ride height or lack of it :)

[QUOTE=TROLLEY;634515]Rexxar - you got yellowed for coilovers? What was the excuse, too hard?[/QUOTE]

Straight through exhaust probably didn't help the matter either!

whats considered illegal ride height these days ?

im higher then a coke can?

Lowest point on the car can't be lower than 100mm with a fully loaded car.

[QUOTE=TROLLEY;634515]Rexxar - you got yellowed for coilovers? What was the excuse, too hard?[/QUOTE]

They didnt say anything abuot my ride hight when I got pulled over but it was too low to pass any ways and wasnt confident on rolling into pits with it either.

[QUOTE=Andy!;634531]After seeing his car the other day. Very good chance it was for ride height or lack of it :)[/QUOTE]

got pulled over for tint :) but the exhaust is bigger bait ahahah

[QUOTE=Kato;634545]Straight through exhaust probably didn't help the matter either![/QUOTE]

I would have thought that as well but the popo never said anything bout exhaust...

[QUOTE=ewrxion87;634583]whats considered illegal ride height these days ?

im higher then a coke can?[/QUOTE]

generally should be 100mm clearance or maybe 110mm from the lowest point on your car normally your exhaust.
not too sure if they count mud flaps either??

cheers guys, you have all been more then helpful

fyi - coilover 0 = hard 30 =soft

i now have the front on 10 and the rear on 12

lifted the rear 15 mm

sway bar is on middle setting

car is much better now

also now that there is some tread wear on the new tyres they are also sticking better

front camber is on 0.7 as per my allignment sheet...however castor is 0.... i think i can get more so il go back and ask and rebook it in as it seems to still lean left anyways.