Race Car Crash Safety.
 

Hey all. Just pondering how safe my car is if i had a crash/roll in it while at the track. And what sorts of things can be done to improve my safety. Ive got a bunch of questions and hope some people can chime in with answers. (some Q's are probably pretty stupid, but Im going to ask anyways). And also get some discussions started on the subject. Ive kind of broken it down into categorys, but alot of it is cross related.

Its intended for my SG forester, which is pretty much a track toy now. It is road registered, but only goes to and from race days now. Or to and from tuners/tyre places etc.

First off. Is there any good reading online on the subject that i can look over. something kind of official and not just random un-verified guess's. (CBF trawling countless threads on the internet to decipher out good info.)

[U][B]Fixed back race seats.[/B][/U]
Can they (and race harness) be used without a roll cage? Have heard this isnt the best idea cos the roof will squash you in a flip over etc. But even if so, would the added benifits outway the risk of such a thing actually happening?

Head protection/full encapsulation seats. How much (if any) better are these over race seats without the wrap-around head guards? Pros and cons? At what point would these be needed over standard race seats?

Is there anywhere in perth that stocks a good selection of seats so i can try out a seat for fitment? A bit worried about buying online and then getting something that doesnt fit my body shape.

Mounting the seats. What is the best way to do this. Are there conversion railings to fit race seats to Subarus. Is so, is this a better way to do it?

Are race seat mounts interchangeable. Eg. can you bolt a Sparco seat in with non Sparco rails?


[B][U]Racing harness.[/U][/B]
What is the best way to mount a harness? I understand its very important to get the angles correct for the top straps etc.

Does it require a roll cage? Can it be done effectively/safely with out a cage as far as mounting up the tie in points etc? And also as far as what happens to the car in crash. (roof coming in, car bending/tearing apart etc)

Harness bars. Are these required to fit harness's?

Can different brands of harness and seat interchange. Ie, could i use Omp seats with Sparco /Takata/whatever belts etc?


[B][U]Head and neck support.[/U][/B]
Can existing non HANS helmets be made fit a hans device? Or do you need to get a helmet designed to match a HANS?

Whats the best one to get?

Can HANS be used with any race harness/seat combo? Or does it need to all be matched?


[B][U]Roll over protection.[/U][/B]
What different types of cage are there? What levels of protection can you get?

Is there a place in Perth that does custom cages? Ball park price for an install?

Crome moly vs steel. Pros and cons.

Getting cages certified with various motorsport organisations. cams, andra, fia etc? Whats the go with that. Im only doing amature stuff now. but if i got a cage, id want it to comply with as many different requirements as possible.


[B][U]Driver apparel.[/U][/B]
Race suits. Are these just for wankers, or have a usefull purpose? I guess flame proof and also protection from abrasions/cuts etc in a crash. But how important is this in the scheme of all the other safety stuff?

Gloves, shoes, nomex undies etc. same deal how important in big picture?









Id like to oneday get the car setup with a super swesome saftey kit. but cant fork out for all of it one go. So im thinking of doing it in steps as i progress. What would be the best priority to do things in. bear in mind im only just starting out and only doing RAC at this stage. So its not too high speed, and its got a fairly safe track surrounds etc.

I ran a race seat and harness without cage or Hans. However, I fully don't recommend it!

With a cage etc, you have to ask, do you really want to race a forester? Yes it's dofferent but is that a good thing? All that extra weight up high? Having said that, there will always be people faster and more people will look at that crazy Foz over a slightly faster WRX!

I would get a cage, race seat, harness and Hans for sure!

Go see Go Gear. They have a few seats. Harnesses, Hans devices etc.

Cage, brad Stacey.

Speak to Ivan at Go-Gear he can answer most of your questions.

[url]http://www.perth-wrx.com/vb/809029-post82.html[/url]

Some more good info on the previous page of that link.

Save up until you are ready to do a cage and harness/hans together, otherwise do the seat/harness/hans together then cage it.

[QUOTE=RUSSGT;826970]I ran a race seat and harness without cage or Hans. However, I fully don't recommend it!

With a cage etc, you have to ask, do you really want to race a forester? Yes it's dofferent but is that a good thing? All that extra weight up high? Having said that, there will always be people faster and more people will look at that crazy Foz over a slightly faster WRX!

I would get a cage, race seat, harness and Hans for sure!

Go see Go Gear. They have a few seats. Harnesses, Hans devices etc.

Cage, brad Stacey.[/QUOTE]
Ive come this far with the car so far Russ, its like eating the last slice of pizza. The first 7 fills you up, but you may aswell just eat the last bit so you can throw the box out.

And yes, i do want to race the forester. its what its been built for. Why stop where it is.

And i dont know what your talking about all that extra weight on a Forester? FYI. These are the kerb weights listed on redbook. As you can see. Bugger all in it. Infact a 2006 WRX wagon weighs MORE than a 2005 Forester XT..... And once you swap out body spacers and lower a forester (to where it should be), there isnt a great deal of hieght difference. CoG would not be very far from an equivelently modded WRX.

MY05 Forester XT 5spd kerb weight 1425kg
MY06 Forester XT 5spd kerb weight 1475kg
MY05 WRX 5spd Sedan kerb weight 1395kg
MY05 WRX 5spd Hatch kerb weight 1410kg
MY06 WRX 5spd Sedan kerb weight 1415kg
MY06 WRX 5spd Hatch kerb weight 1430kg
MY05 WRX STi 6spd kerb weight 1475kg
MY06 WRX STi 6spd kerb weight 1495kg

I dont want to be the fastest car out there. But there is no reason why this forester cant be competitive with similarily modded wrxs/stis. and hell even beat a few of them too.

[QUOTE=nick73;826971]Speak to Ivan at Go-Gear he can answer most of your questions.

[url]http://www.perth-wrx.com/vb/809029-post82.html[/url]

Some more good info on the previous page of that link.

Save up until you are ready to do a cage and harness/hans together, otherwise do the seat/harness/hans together then cage it.[/QUOTE]

can you make that link show the whole thread. when i click it, its just one single post.

thanks. thats kind of the methodoligy i was wanting. i basicaly was thinking of putting a better seat in. but then started thinking about whats needed to make it safe.

[url]http://www.perth-wrx.com/vb/your-driveway/55970-betty-blue-post809029.html#post809029[/url]

Pages 2 & 3 mate.

Wow those weights are interesting! Far out! Well forget what I said!

As I said, more people look at the crazy forester than epanything else anyway! Keep it up!

Its all about roll centre.

Show me WRX vs Forester.

After smashing my pride and joy and having to pay to repair it I was unsure about what to do about the whole safety thing. Scary's post kind of summed it up for me, either go all out on safety or don't.

It's not like my car is unsafe, I walked away from a 40-50km/hr sudden stop on the armco. I broke my seat, it was laid back at a 45 degree angle, I'm lucky not to have submarined out of my seat completely.

I pretension my seat belt and lock it before every run. I reckon had I not done that on the day I would have ended up in the spare wheel well...

If I had your car I would go all out as the shell is ready to take all the extra goodies and you only use it for racing.

I still do daddy daycare pick ups/drop offs twice a week so a caged car is not an option for me at the moment.

[QUOTE=matto20v;826989]Its all about roll centre.

Show me WRX vs Forester.[/QUOTE]

I agree. thats why my forester has been spacer deleted and all crossmbers swapped to sti. Once you do this to a forester, its roll centers are identical to a wrx.

and ive even gone further with extended ball joints and tie rod ends up front, and ikeya rear arms to adjust rear roll center aswell.

[QUOTE=matto20v;826989]Its all about roll centre.

Show me WRX vs Forester.[/QUOTE]


any info you might find will be stock vs stock, or no info about Foresters
Bram's isn't stock

[QUOTE=Bram;826980]can you make that link show the whole thread. when i click it, its just one single post.[/QUOTE]

When a single post has been linked like that, the parent thread is always accessible from the top right hand side.
In the post that Nick has linked, it lists Betty Blue as the parent thread.

Not picking on you, just not every one notices it.
:D

Fast driver > fast car, just go for it!

Go gear have been helpful to me in the past so definitely worth a call. I also know of LF performance, Heath Ledger's dad runs it (so I've heard) and their work is top class. They can do fabrication work ie roll cage.

A Forester might have slightly higher centre of gravity due to chassis compared to wrx, but no matter, just keep the heavy shit mounted as low as practically possible.

Seat time on track is worth more than a little power/CoG. Just do it ;)


using the Perth-WRX mobile app

Go to Go Gear, talk to Ivan.

He can answer pretty much all your questions and explain the reasons and methods for the best compliant and safe setup.
Ivan is CAMS scrutineer. You will get a varying range of answers from the internet.

Having going from being in an STI wagon then to an STI sedan. There is a big difference in handling, advantage sedan. If you are going to spend the money on a wield in cage, best to do a sedan which can then continue to take you further into Motorsport(targa/waneroo) if you desire. Resale will be better also.

well. seats and mounts have been purchesed. subaru specific base plates purchased. omp 6 pt harness purchased.

Went to Go Gear as suggested by others. Picked up a set of OMP RS-PT seats. I really had my heart set on the style of the OMP WRC. But unfortuantly, the standard size is too tight for my child bearing hips, and the XL is way too big for me. And they dont make the WRC in an inbetween size. So i settled on a pair of the RS-PTs. these are similar price, but have a smallish wrap around head encapsulation protector. Where-as the WRCs dont. But the WRCs do have the upgrade fabric, which these dont. And to get the HTEs, which do have the upgrade fabric, was like another 200 each side. I settled on the RS-PTs as they should do the trick, and fitted me best.

I picked up a set Kyouu Subaru dspecific bases in canning vale the other day. (Wanted the Planted brand, but shipping from the states quoted at like 300USD. So, not getting them...)

I also got a 6pt OMP harness, and bolts/mounting plates etc. But I will need a harness bar made to make use of them.

I asked about using a fixed back in a cage-less car. And that should be fine. I also asked about using the new seats with a standard seat belt tomorrow (as i wont have time to get a bar made) And that should be OK.

test fitted the seats. the head protection means my stock seatbelts need to go in order to fit them. the upper seatbelt connection interferes with the head protector in my preferred seating position. And the deep base means the buckle is not in an ideal position. Too dangerous in my opinion to run these buckets without a harness. So im going to be running my STi seats until i can have a harness bar made.

Once made, both my JDM GRB/GVB STi Premium all leather seats will be forsale. They have already been modified to mount to GC/GD/SF/SG etc, and will not fit GR anymore. The drivers is all electric, passenger is manual. Both have seat heaters in. And they both have the SRS equipment inside. Even have a set of older model seat heater switchs aswell. (interested buyers welcome to come and inspect)

On the forester body, it looks like getting a harness bar will be a fairly straight forward affair. The bar will go across from one rear strut tower to the other. There is already solid mounting points in the front face of the rear strut tower which are meant for the rear seat upper mounts. And these will be strong enough to connect the bar to.

I reckon I could easily weld up my own bar. But in the interest of safety, this will be made by a proffesional. Brad Stacey was recommended by Go Gear. I might also talk to Russ Kap aswell, as im pretty sure he made a harness bar and he welds like deamon.

[IMG]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-BT-QLcOsHxU/VbM6pIY4PAI/AAAAAAAABcM/1sDr2rh_Dv8/w1280-h720-p-rw/2015%2B-%2B1[/IMG]

[IMG]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-au-Iz8xnSnQ/VbM6d9qbcCI/AAAAAAAABco/4EPGFQ1zfpY/w2120-h1192-p-rw/2015%2B-%2B1[/IMG]

[IMG]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Wgj9CVsY5gE/VbM6WpeudKI/AAAAAAAABa0/VSil-vRLFNA/w720-h1280-p-rw/2015%2B-%2B1[/IMG]

[IMG]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-iH-3mc76V3c/VbM6aRk1qvI/AAAAAAAABcc/MKXQEGXEKRI/w2120-h1192-p-rw/2015%2B-%2B1[/IMG]

You don't fuck around bra.

Quick question about harness and fixed back seat mounting points for those in the know. Ive had a read of the CAMS guide, but couldnt find specific info. Ill try and explain it as best as i can.

When installing a 6pt harness to a Subaru, is it acceptable to use the bolt hole for the front seat, inner rear leg to secure the lap-sash? I am using subaru specific seat subframes that utilise all 4 of the original seats bolt holes. The inner lapsash (closest to transmission tunnel) lines up perfectly with the front seat subframe inner rear mount point. The harnsess came supplied with 7/16 unf eyebolts. It appears that most of the Subaru seatbelt and somr of the seat mounts are also 7/16 unf, so I am wondering if it is possible to simply secure the lapsash AND inner rear leg of the seat subframe with the one harness eyebolt?

The CAMS guide says NOT to use mount points for a safety cage as mount points for a safety harness. But it doesnt say not to use mount points for the same seat as the harness.


This pic is showing the rear inner leg of the front passenger seat, using the eyebolt to secure it and the inner lapsash. Drivers side will be the exact same, only mirror image.
[IMG]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-aXNukD30RwU/Vb2Sf8QMI4I/AAAAAAAABmI/5tZ17iLokLo/w2120-h3768-p-rw/2015%2B-%2B1[/IMG]




The rest of the harness mounts I should be OK with. But here is a run down so far.

The outer lapsah lines up perfectly with the bolt hole that secures the OE seatbelt reel/pretensioner. And it too uses a 7/16 unf hole. So I was going to use that for the outer lapsah mounting with the supplied eyebolt. And totoally remove the OE seatbelts. *They clash with the wrap around head protection in my new seats. So it is impossible to use them with the seats.*

The crotch straps I have put metal base plates on the underside of the car, and threaded the eyebolts into. There is a reinforcing ridge in the floor of the car directly below the seat, and I have put the crotch strap base plates on either side of the reinforcing ridge directly below the seat opening. This seams like a strong point. And lines up near perfectly with the seat position.

The shoulder straps will need a harness bar built across the rear stru towers to get the ideal angle. Still working on this one.

Thankyou.

One final question. What is the ideal way of tackiling the SRS system? Is it better to simply put resistors in the seat airbags and seatbelt pretensioners wiring. And try and keep the steering wheel (and passenger dash) airbag in operation. Or is it preffered to totoally disable the SRS system alltogether?

[QUOTE=Bram;827818]When installing a 6pt harness to a Subaru, is it acceptable to use the bolt hole for the front seat, inner rear leg to secure the lap-sash?
[/QUOTE]

Yes. This is the usual mounting point.

[QUOTE=Bram;827818]
The crotch straps I have put metal base plates on the underside of the car, and threaded the eyebolts into. There is a reinforcing ridge in the floor of the car directly below the seat, and I have put the crotch strap base plates on either side of the reinforcing ridge directly below the seat opening. This seams like a strong point. And lines up near perfectly with the seat position.

[/QUOTE]

Usually you weld a bar inside the cabin under the seat which is used to mount the crotch strap to.
I have seen it done with doubler plates going through the floor, but most the only thing to note here
is that if something happens to catch the bolt head underneath the car, it may rip you nutsack off.

Child bearing hips and a nutsack?? This some sort of Kardashian/Jenner construction??

[QUOTE=Bram;827819]One final question. What is the ideal way of tackiling the SRS system? Is it better to simply put resistors in the seat airbags and seatbelt pretensioners wiring. And try and keep the steering wheel (and passenger dash) airbag in operation. Or is it preffered to totoally disable the SRS system alltogether?[/QUOTE]

If you are using a 6 point harness a airbag is useless as you aren't going to move from your seat. harnesses physically restrain you unlike seat belts ( clearly duh) however you would want to check your insurance as if you have the car still registered, disabling safety features and removing airbags is normally enough to void any insurance you would have in the event of a crash.

Race car point of view - remove everything you don't need as all the airbags and everything are heavy.

[QUOTE=ratpack;827870]Child bearing hips and a nutsack?? This some sort of Kardashian/Jenner construction??[/QUOTE]

its great. you should try it. best bit is, you can go fuck yourself. haha

[QUOTE=Saint_23;827869]Yes. This is the usual mounting point.



Usually you weld a bar inside the cabin under the seat which is used to mount the crotch strap to.
I have seen it done with doubler plates going through the floor, but most the only thing to note here
is that if something happens to catch the bolt head underneath the car, it may rip you nutsack off.[/QUOTE]

great thanks for the reply.

I do like my nuts, and would not like to have them ripped off. Have ypu got any photos showing the type of mounting your talking about?

Its not the lowest point of the floor on a forester. there is a large ridge/channel (maybe 50mm^2 on the bottom of the floor pan running front to back directly below the seat. i currently have those base plates on the bottom of the floor on either side of the channel. So they sit up maybe 40-50mm from the lowest section of the channel. but i guess it could collect a curb or something if you were incredibly unlucky?

[QUOTE=Master D;827875]If you are using a 6 point harness a airbag is useless as you aren't going to move from your seat. harnesses physically restrain you unlike seat belts ( clearly duh) however you would want to check your insurance as if you have the car still registered, disabling safety features and removing airbags is normally enough to void any insurance you would have in the event of a crash.

Race car point of view - remove everything you don't need as all the airbags and everything are heavy.[/QUOTE]

ok. the only SRS stuff left after seats and belts are removed will be the 2 front airbags. (and all the sensors and module.)

I might dissable the SRS completely, but leave the drivers airbag in place. (because STi badge and horn pad. and see if its possible to remove the passenger bag, but leave the dash panel intact?

[QUOTE=Bram;827878]great thanks for the reply.

I do like my nuts, and would not like to have them ripped off. Have ypu got any photos showing the type of mounting your talking about?

Its not the lowest point of the floor on a forester. there is a large ridge/channel (maybe 50mm^2 on the bottom of the floor pan running front to back directly below the seat. i currently have those base plates on the bottom of the floor on either side of the channel. So they sit up maybe 40-50mm from the lowest section of the channel. but i guess it could collect a curb or something if you were incredibly unlucky?[/QUOTE]

Trying to dig up a decent photo of one.
Something like this would work. At least then the bolts aren't a "direct-to-nuts" connection.
[IMG]http://i.ebayimg.com/21/!B8VJkzgBmk~$(KGrHqJ,!g4EyrqvregYBM2vGv!Ih!~~0_35.GIF[/IMG]

ok gotcha.

What would you think about using a plate on top of the floor pan sandwiched between the eyebolt and the car floor panel, with the mounting anchor plate still on the bottom of the floor. At least that way if it does get hit on the bottom, it wont pull out the bottom. and if you are in a crash, the crotch belts wont pull up either.

I welded a bar to my seat rail frame on mine. Harness attached to that.

[QUOTE=RUSSGT;827884]I welded a bar to my seat rail frame on mine. Harness attached to that.[/QUOTE]

thats a good option Russ. It would seam possible with the Kyouu base plates i have now. The only issue i can think of is if the straps/adjusters are then too close to the opening in the seat bottom?

Eye bolts in where each of the chair bolts are not an option?

using the Perth-WRX mobile app

[QUOTE=Jacob92;827941]Eye bolts in where each of the chair bolts are not an option?

using the Perth-WRX mobile app[/QUOTE]

only one of the four front seat bolts is 7/16unf. the rest are a smaller thread. havent actually checked, but think its a m10x1.25 as subaru use that size alot.

and the front 2 are way too far forward to use as crotch strap mounts.


only the rear inner is good for a lap sash i think. the outer lap sash lines up perfectly with the standard seatbeltount.

Yea they are I was gunna go past go gear nd see if they have that size eye bolt... Surely that would be stronger then going into the rail ... :s not sure

using the Perth-WRX mobile app

[QUOTE=Jacob92;827946]Yea they are I was gunna go past go gear nd see if they have that size eye bolt... Surely that would be stronger then going into the rail ... :s not sure

using the Perth-WRX mobile app[/QUOTE]

for which part of the harness are you talking about? The front 2 seat mounts are useless for any part of the harness due to the position. The outer lapsash seams best suited to using the original seatbelt mount. And the lapsash inner seams best suited to use the seats inner rear mount. (which is also the same thread as the eyebolts that came with our harnesses) And the shoulder straps need to go backwards.

Yea the front strap seamed to sit fine in Mine but chair difference might change that

using the Perth-WRX mobile app

does your seat have a hole in the muddle of the seat base for the crotch straps? surely that wont line up with the front holes unless you have the seat really far forwards.

Yea my chair is fairly far forward and the hole is just forward of centre. the the strap Is about a 45 degree angle straight to the bolt on each side

using the Perth-WRX mobile app

wow. you must have the seat at full nana spec. i think you want less than 10 or 15 degrees for the crotch straps. So it has to be pretty much directly below the hole in the seat.

Ah got ya mm my plan won't be any good then .... 4 point for now then I'll have to weld an extra bar to the rail then

using the Perth-WRX mobile app

More questions.

Helmets? Currently have a AS/NZS1698 open face helmet. It was pretty much the cheapest helmet i could find years ago for skid pan. Im thinking of upgrading. It seams the way to go is get a dedicated motorsport helmet with a Snell SA2010 and also FIA certification. But i was looking about and it seams the Snell is due for a revamp. They seam to do it every 5 years. So i emailed the Snell foundation and sure enough SA2015 is due out for release in october 1 this year. And manufactures have already been submitting helmets for testing and certification. But are not allowed to sell untill Oct 1.

So im expecting after that, there will be good sales/deals to be had with the SA2010 helmets. Or will the existing helmets simply be re-stickered to carry the new certification. (if they meet it)

If there is saving to be had on sa2010 helmets, which brands/models etc are the ones to look for? I would assume not all helmets bearing the certification are created equal.