When do you have the right to sell your images?
 

I've been into photography for a while and have recently set up a website with Smugmug to store/backup/display some of my photos. But I'm still not sure when is it ok to make profit from my images? (not that mine are that good, but in theory). And am I required to set up an ABN before I sell?

Also, if I turned up to say No limits, Trakdayz, or any of the other sessions held at Barbagallo, (or even some of the Rally's down south) do I have the right to sell the images (to the owners of the cars/bikes/whatever)?

I think it may be worth while having a look on the Australian Taxation Office ('ATO'), website to understand the difference between a business and a hobby first.

I'm aware that my activities count as a hobby, however what I'm not sure about is whether I require the permission of whoever is hiring the venue and/or the subjects?

If you are going to be selling photos, best to speak to event organisers. You can probably get a sexy 'press' vest to wear and better access to photography spots.

You can sell you photos any time you want, just be prepared for epic flaming :D

I'd also highly suggest advice from an accountant on how you setup this business. Just because you consider it a hobby, the ATO doesn't always think that way.

I think morally most people be annoyed that at a closed event that people would take pics of their cars to sell considering they had to pay a fee to drive the car. Motorvation, Rexpo etc is different as this is open to alot of people..

However, i suppose it would be dependent on what you decided to charge.. i.e if you took a fair few pics of a particular car then i wouldnt mind paying a fee to get all these pictures put on dvd and posted out...

The worst thing in the world is someone who takes utterly shit photos setting up a site and trying to sell them.

Its painful.

Not that you are in this class.

Having said that - why should someone spend their dollars buying gear, their time and effort and money to go to an event, take photos, process photos, and then just give out their work for free?

There is a fine line to be treaded along to find the best mix.

I never charged for stuff I took at events because I did it for the love of cars, but at times I really should have.

That, and my pics were shit anyhow :)

Have a read of this thread: [url=http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1039208]Public event photography - told I couldn't sell photos - Canon Digital Photography Forums[/url]

This topic is debated all the time on photography forums, and there never seems to be a definitive answer!

I charge for photoshoots, have sold individual photos from car photoshoots to local businesses before for use in advertising, but have always consulted the owner of the car before doing so. I don't do much track photography but when I have I've never sold those, they usually employ an official photographer(s) so that could be frowned upon.

I do have an ABN but not 100% sure if it is legally required to sell pics.

[QUOTE=teejay;574108]Having said that - why should someone spend their dollars buying gear, their time and effort and money to go to an event, take photos, process photos, and then just give out their work for free?

There is a fine line to be treaded along to find the best mix.

I never charged for stuff I took at events because I did it for the love of cars, but at times I really should have.

That, and my pics were shit anyhow :)[/QUOTE]

TJ the same can be said for car owners.. Why should they spend 1000s more on their car and risk putting the car in the wall for ppl to take pics of it then sell it to the masses...

It all comes down to the cost... if someone is going to charge 20 per digital photo i think that is unfair to the owner of the car.. They should be consulted imo..

For official events like motorvation etc then this is different but for skid pan days etc i dont think that the same rules apply..

Will pay $5 for photos.

[QUOTE=RUSSGT;574121]Will pay $5 for photos.[/QUOTE]

haha good to see you're still in fine form Russ :thumbsup:

[QUOTE=trainwrex;574119]TJ the same can be said for car owners.. Why should they spend 1000s more on their car and risk putting the car in the wall for ppl to take pics of it then sell it to the masses...

It all comes down to the cost... if someone is going to charge 20 per digital photo i think that is unfair to the owner of the car.. They should be consulted imo..

For official events like motorvation etc then this is different but for skid pan days etc i dont think that the same rules apply..[/QUOTE]

your on crack, there is no difference between a skidpan day and a rally. the only thing you need is permission to be physically standing on the land to take the photos. what you can see with your lens becomes your copyright the instant you click the shutter. The question is if the photo is WORTH selling

[QUOTE=jEstEr?;574202]what you can see with your lens becomes your copyright the instant you click the shutter. The question is if the photo is WORTH selling[/QUOTE]

Upskirt pics or GTFO ? :D

[QUOTE=jEstEr?;574202]...the only thing you need is permission to be physically standing on the land to take the photos. what you can see with your lens becomes your copyright the instant you click the shutter. The question is if the photo is WORTH selling[/QUOTE]

The whole paparazzi world would end if wasn't like this.

and that would be a bad thing?

Well the idea is to sell the photos to the owner of the vehicle as a momento of their time of their time on the track. This obviously works best for experience days as the racers already know how cool they look!:rolleyes:

The ATO regard it as a hobby.

I'll have a word with the event organisers and see what they say.

I'm pretty sure unless you are making more than $5k? income from your hobby/business, the ATO don't want to know about it. But that also means that costs associated with the running of the business cannot be claimed against the income.

[QUOTE=98kellrs;574244]Well the idea is to sell the photos to the owner of the vehicle as a momento of their time of their time on the track. This obviously works best for experience days as the racers already know how cool they look!:rolleyes:

The ATO regard it as a hobby.

I'll have a word with the event organisers and see what they say.[/QUOTE]

I really think this is a stupid idea. Unless they ask you to take photos or are paying for your services the photos should be free. You rocking up on your own initiative and taking a bunch of photos hoping they will pay for them is rude and arrogant.

Cash sales FTW too.

[QUOTE=RUSSGT;574259]I really think this is a stupid idea. Unless they ask you to take photos or are paying for your services the photos should be free. You rocking up on your own initiative and taking a bunch of photos hoping they will pay for them is rude and arrogant.[/QUOTE]

Well my first motivation for taking the photos is down to my love of the sports, combined with enjoying the challenge of capturing their movement in a way that reflects how impressive it is, not just snapping dull, generic, freeze-frames to try and flog. I don't want to push people into buying the images, but if they want to pay me for my efforts I want to be sure I'm not going to get sued by the event organisers, or official photographers.

[QUOTE=98kellrs;574265]I don't want to push people into buying the images, but if they want to pay me for my efforts I want to be sure I'm not going to get sued by the event organisers, or official photographers.[/QUOTE]

There is already a lot of good info here and you have summed it up quite well here.

It is a bit like going to Alcatraz in San Fran, They snap your photo of you standing beside an ex prisoner, display it and hope that you will give them $35 for it to be printed onto a post card / t shirt / coffee mug.

You don't have to buy it, but you have the option.

[QUOTE=98kellrs;574265]Well my first motivation for taking the photos is down to my love of the sports, combined with enjoying the challenge of capturing their movement in a way that reflects how impressive it is, not just snapping dull, generic, freeze-frames to try and flog. I don't want to push people into buying the images, but if they want to pay me for my efforts I want to be sure I'm not going to get sued by the event organisers, or official photographers.[/QUOTE]
Ive seen your photos and they are nice, yet anyone with a camera and computer assumes they are are a pro photographer. Water mark here and viola. Im just over seeing everyone who owns a DSLR assume they're pro.

BTW panning and taking a pic of a bright car during the day doesnt make you good.

Yet so many cannot do it well.

[QUOTE=teejay;574271]Yet so many cannot do it well.[/QUOTE]

:(









lol

[QUOTE=RUSSGT;574269]Ive seen your photos and they are nice, yet anyone with a camera and computer assumes they are are a pro photographer. Water mark here and viola. Im just over seeing everyone who owns a DSLR assume they're pro.

BTW panning and taking a pic of a bright car during the day doesnt make you good.[/QUOTE]

Well thanks for looking, they were taken in a rush at the end of a long days shooting so I'm well aware that they are far from my best.:) They are watermarked because those shots are recieving over 10,000 views a day and I want to get some promotion for my site if they're going to be plastered round the forums, not because I'm arrogant.:confused:

Hope it works for you then. I guess when you say you love the motorsport thing so much and cars etc, makes me wonder why you now want to charge for pics of the guys actually out there. Could be your way of giving to the sport if you cant get out there? If you feel your time and skill is worth something become a pro and get paid like all the pro's do.

BTW how much do you charge if say someone wanted to get you to come and do some photog?

Everyone seems to have forgotten what freelance is.

If you happen to grab a pic of Colin Barnett out in public flicking a booger out the window & Zoo wants to pay you to relinquish the rights to YOUR image then do it..... You can stay anonymous, they are publishing it not you.

I'm a shit hobby shooter, yet Fishing WA used to pay me for publishing rights to the photo's I used to submit along with my articles. It wasn't much (like $100 for a cover or $50 for any other images larger than 1/4 page) but it was better than nothing.

Yeah I watermark my pics...just to be a wanker really....But you'll be amazed where your images turn up when they're searchable by google & anyone can grab them......

Yeah I guess. I get out on the track on the bike but my rex is staying as a street steed.

I probably would only do a shoot as a favour for a mate as it's not an area I'm equipped for at this stage. Like you say it's easier to create great shots panning in daylight!;) I can however recommend a couple of guys who specialise in that type of photography if you're interested?

I am no pro photographer and I know fuck all about taking pictures, but I reckon the majority of those photos on your page are pretty shit hot.

I find it ridiculous people spend big $$$ on a race car then won't spend $20-50 for a professional photo to capture the moment. I know many old racers who wish they had photos of that special car at it's best.

A really good WA based motorsport forum run by and supported by some of the best photographers in the business is [url]www.speedwest.net[/url] . Have a look around those forums you will see a few guys doing the same as you. It's sorta the unofficial forum of the WASCC crew as well.

Id love to.get decent shots of my car in action but im yet to get one id pay for. I mean credit to whoever takes the shots and what not but if im paying for pictures... Might as well get ones i like lol

[QUOTE=axle;574484]I find it ridiculous people spend big $$$ on a race car then won't spend $20-50 for a professional photo to capture the moment. I know many old racers who wish they had photos of that special car at it's best.

A really good WA based motorsport forum run by and supported by some of the best photographers in the business is [url]www.speedwest.net[/url] . Have a look around those forums you will see a few guys doing the same as you. It's sorta the unofficial forum of the WASCC crew as well.[/QUOTE]

I think the issue is what the cost would be to pay for said pics.. I.e i would be more than happy to pay a price for pics of my car in action... for example 10 pics for 20-50 or so....

but i would be pissed off if i had to pay 20 per photo...

[QUOTE=trainwrex;574488]but i would be pissed off if i had to pay 20 per photo...[/QUOTE]

I've paid over that for photos at events. Shit, Movieworld charges more than that for a picture of you on the Superman ride.

If it is good and captures the moment you want, why not pay for it?

As has been said before, I'd check with event organisers as 99% of the time you will be 'working' on their property. Most of the time it is just courtesy and sometimes can allow you into better shooting areas.

[QUOTE=trainwrex;574488]I think the issue is what the cost would be to pay for said pics.. I.e i would be more than happy to pay a price for pics of my car in action... for example 10 pics for 20-50 or so....

but i would be pissed off if i had to pay 20 per photo...[/QUOTE]

Price probably would come down if more people weren't tight asses and bought pics. For the semi professional guys they need to charge a decent amount to go some way towards covering costs of equipment etc

I know one guy who is a WASCC regular get contracted by Redbull for the air race and also F1 in Melbourne. So we are talking top quality photographers.

I was happy to pay $50 for an awesome panning shot of my car coming down the hill at barbs. Now I don't own the car and it was the last race day I think it was money well spent.

[QUOTE=DAN682;574478]I am no pro photographer and I know fuck all about taking pictures, but I reckon the majority of those photos on your page are pretty shit hot.[/QUOTE]

Thanks, it means a lot to hear positive feedback! Like I said, I'm not too proud of the FXX on-track shots, but a couple of the still shots before/after are ok. The ones I'm most proud of are the bikes (I know, wrong forum) because of how long it took me to get good shots using a pretty darn low shutter speed! :o

[QUOTE=axle;574484]

A really good WA based motorsport forum run by and supported by some of the best photographers in the business is [URL="http://www.speedwest.net/"]www.speedwest.net[/URL] . Have a look around those forums you will see a few guys doing the same as you. It's sorta the unofficial forum of the WASCC crew as well.[/QUOTE]

Cheers for the link, that exactly what I was looking for! :icon_thum

[QUOTE=Kato;574493]As has been said before, I'd check with event organisers as 99% of the time you will be 'working' on their property. Most of the time it is just courtesy and sometimes can allow you into better shooting areas.[/QUOTE]

Yeah I think that's definitely the way to go. I'd absolutely kill to get infield at Barbs for some decent mid-corner shots, hopefully one day!

LOL drop half a mill on a car, refuse to spend 100 bucks on pics.

[QUOTE=axle;574495]Price probably would come down if more people weren't tight asses and bought pics. For the semi professional guys they need to charge a decent amount to go some way towards covering costs of equipment etc

I know one guy who is a WASCC regular get contracted by Redbull for the air race and also F1 in Melbourne. So we are talking top quality photographers.

I was happy to pay $50 for an awesome panning shot of my car coming down the hill at barbs. Now I don't own the car and it was the last race day I think it was money well spent.[/QUOTE]


As I said don't have an issue with paying for pics.. As it's great to get some action shots of your car.. But I would hope that I wouldn't be slung with a potential 300 bill to get 4-5 shots.. Imagine doing this at every event u went to..

Then u might have to factor in other people also taken pics..

You would need to alocate a photography budget to your racing budget which would be higher than ur tyre allowance :p

[QUOTE=trainwrex;574625]As I said don't have an issue with paying for pics.. As it's great to get some action shots of your car.. But I would hope that I wouldn't be slung with a potential 300 bill to get 4-5 shots.. Imagine doing this at every event u went to..

Then u might have to factor in other people also taken pics..

You would need to alocate a photography budget to your racing budget which would be higher than ur tyre allowance :p[/QUOTE]

I see your point. I only ever got one or two.
Always good to have a mate with a good DSLR as well.
Also with race cams etc there are other ways to record events.

[QUOTE=trainwrex;574625]But I would hope that I wouldn't be slung with a potential 300 bill to get 4-5 shots.. Imagine doing this at every event u went to..[/QUOTE]

Why would it be a "bill"? You're not obliged to pay for any photos taken of you/your car. Do you really need multiple photos from every event you enter? Save the purchases for the real stand out images that come along, and if you really want bunches of images for nothing then ask a mate to take some happy snaps instead of expecting a stranger to give their work away for nothing.

[QUOTE=trainwrex;574488]but i would be pissed off if i had to pay 20 per photo...[/QUOTE]

This is why Perth has 853,611 hobbyists who go around calling themselves photographers or pro's... just for the fact that some tightarse occasionally buys their shit images rather than paying a premium for something/someone decent. Kinda kills the market in certain areas of photography. The amateur/promo modeling scene in Perth breeds this attitude in particular.

[QUOTE=Craig_H;574640]Why would it be a "bill"? You're not obliged to pay for any photos taken of you/your car. Do you really need multiple photos from every event you enter? Save the purchases for the real stand out images that come along, and if you really want bunches of images for nothing then ask a mate to take some happy snaps instead of expecting a stranger to give their work away for nothing.



This is why Perth has 853,611 hobbyists who go around calling themselves photographers or pro's... just for the fact that some tightarse occasionally buys their shit images rather than paying a premium for something/someone decent. Kinda kills the market in certain areas of photography. The amateur/promo modeling scene in Perth breeds this attitude in particular.[/QUOTE]

Woah Camel.... Settle down..

I never said i expect a stranger to give me pix for nothing.... The question of this thread is what would you charge.. And im pointing out noone is going to pay crack pipe prices for pics (which are essentially a digital image, not hardcopy) especially from hobbist photographers, which 99% of the photo taking population is..

If you like a pic, your going to want that pic.. Why would you um and arr about it thinking that oh maybe next event your competing at that another photographer might get a better angle..

There are plenty of people on this forum that are happy to send you pics of your car that attend most of these track days... i.e Sarah (WAWA), Mark (Munya), Damo (Damo), Kym (Impresiv) just to name a few.. Whom do it more socially rather than a revenue raising exercise..

Some people on here are pointing out that there is a huge cost to bear for the photographer as if taking pics of cars on the track is the sole reason why they bought a SLR camera..