Mao:
Hi Mao,

No i actually dont agree that Motec or Vipec is far more accurate/superior at best i would say its convenient/specialised to a particular application.

Subaru's airflow method is pretty good out of the box, its been engineered quite well and functions within specification for the manufacturer to produce the sheer number of cars that it does.

In concept i find it hard to beat for a standard car, how else do you propose measuring flow through a tube without a sensor?

VE requires some assumptions to be made for accurate calculations, where AFM has a sensor measuring flow through a specific sized tube (in a simplified example). It has a MAF table which has predetermined "flow" per voltage and it only becomes an major issue in the modifying world because we as enthusiasts choose to run engines with a bit more "oompf" and change the flow pattern of an engine.

Which is why changing the housing size/design of an intake results in new AFR readings.

Tuning requires a few specialised tools to get the job done correctly..

Basic tools are:

1. Wideband AFR sensors
2. Specialised software
3. Knock Sensors / Det Cans
4. Dyno (WOT runs)
5. Road Tuning (Daily area's that are not addressed at WOT)

The ECU itself is not "accuracy" , its the combination of tools that address what you're measuring to gain a difference in combustion. This difference equates to power/torque.

Wideband sensors are at the end of the day are consumable items, once you start seeing .1 or .2 differences in AFR "accuracy" of fuel goes out the window! Motec documentation for their wideband stipulates that regular replacement be done so that fuel tables are accurate, most wideband manufacturers tell you to also calibrate them in free air prior to use for best results (depending on brand).

Realtime tuning on standard ECU is possible, rewrite segments of code to load a fuel table into RAM, get routines to reference those segments in RAM and finally use SSM to update RAM values.

Rob83:

I don't think its a fight, more clarification to consumers on what claims an individual makes when saying this apple is the same as that orange. I've been around the traps long enough to be skeptical and research the answers for myself.

All replies are _my_ personal opinion and not those of ASG, it's up to the customer to believe who they want to believe.

Oh no - He didnt............

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[CENTER][COLOR=#ff0000]Built Ej207: Semi-closed RA Cases - Wiseco Forgies - Manley rods - BC 272 cams - GDA Heads - billet f/whl - Vi-pec - WbO2 - 800cc Yellow tops - TD05-20G - 409Hp ath @ 1.75bar on E85[/COLOR][/CENTER]

yep

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Funny looking German Subaru

why do i think this thread is gonna get messy?

seriously but i am really interested in this topic as i myself have not got my car tuned yet, will leave the discussion to the pro's

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98 gf8 Rip

Intra:

1)You can't argue that your Verso or OST is more accurate than Motec. I have seen the tunes. It is both time consuming and less accurate.
I made a simple point, can OST have real time? Can you show me how to hold it at 65% throttle at 5000rpm on OST????

2) Volumetric Efficiency is derived from physics PV=nRT. I hope u know the actual formula for VE.

3) I can physically calculate every cell in the fuel tables in any VE based ecu like Motec, Vipec, Link and Autronics which is based on actual VE. Even if I do it on OST and what's the point when I don't get real time tunes.

4) MAF --- is irrevelent on a Denso as it is algorithmically based. What's the point of changing to VE when you cannot tune real time.

5) What's the point of using an Ecutek rom technology or even develop another rom and mount it on the Denso board when Motec and other companies have already produced pnp boards. Will it be more economical, i seriously doubt it.

6) Just a question from Warick, what are your academic qualifications?

7) FYI, I have access to all of the JECS and Denso Jap manuals and do not wish to share so don't press me for answers to things like ECUtek's lock and unlock codes.I toped Ben's Strada's class in the US and do not really wish to engage. I do not want to share any more info that will be detirmental to OST as it is not fully developed yet and is still undergoing R+D.

Ooo secrets.

OST is continually improving with a lot of R+D at the moment. I for one do not believe in sharing info on locking ecus as I am against that shit.

hmm, who actually tunes with throttle input though?

accel enrich/enlean is about all i ever used on the motec.

throttle position is nearly irrelevant on a wrx, other then cutting the threshold for idle control.

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Long live the WRC

Yes just as an example. Haltech still does this though ... LOL.

What about MAP vs rpm then or the ignition tables? I wont want to be advancing timing and running into detonation on runs just to log whereas MBT can be achieved on Motec without the danger of knocking, especially in conjunction with Mainline dynos...

Just my input of real time tuning on Motec vs OST.

the motec can tune to an air flow metre if necessary though.

the advantage of an AFM is it takes the guess work out of air-pressure/air tempurature/humidy all in one sensor.

providing you can scale the AFM correctly for the anticipated load, its actually a much safer tune in my opinion.

very few people go to the effort of completely tuning their car with all the air tempurature compensation and BAP/MAP based compensation to determine the proper VE.

even motec on their base maps short cut the VE process and use MAP as their base reference rather then defining the load/efficency channel thoroughly.

to get it completley right on the motec takes days and days of tuning.

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Long live the WRC