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  #11  
Old 23-06-2011, 10:05 AM
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^^^ Good advice there Brendon. I was going to suggest this but didnt realise you still had it.

Having been down the build path, I would definately buy one pre built if I could find the right car. I would definately consider Brendons one that has been well built with no expense spared. The way the car presents shows this clearly. Will save you a fortune. You can still have some fun modifying it and put the $$ you save towards fine tuning it and making it your own and an even better thing.
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  #12  
Old 23-06-2011, 03:41 PM
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this is all good, but i would get too bored if i bought a ready made car, and i would be buying someone elses car if you know where im coming from? as my father being a fabricator we want to build this car as a learning car then import a R35 as the next race car. he isnt just a "point a squirty gun and make snot appear", he has spent the last 30 years working from alluminium to titatnium and other exotic metals aswell, building items from surge tanks, drop tanks, fuel cells to alluminium boats.
I have a lot more respect for a car if we build it and put it together aswell.
(not saying that your car isnt what id be looking for brendon)
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  #13  
Old 23-06-2011, 05:27 PM
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Saw Scott Pedders car after it went head first into a tree and that cage (Chromoly) was still perfect, did an amazing job considering the impact, I will definitely be doing another chromoly cage. I guess you weld in what ever you feel comfortable with.
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  #14  
Old 24-06-2011, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJDINO View Post
Saw Scott Pedders car after it went head first into a tree and that cage (Chromoly) was still perfect, did an amazing job considering the impact, I will definitely be doing another chromoly cage. I guess you weld in what ever you feel comfortable with.
Ok, look I know this pro and anti CroMo argument could go on for ages, and everyone's got their own opinions and anecdotal stories of what car did what in which crash, but I'll finish on this:

As of 2012 CAMS (as the FIA did many years ago on safety grounds) has banned the use of CroMo in roll cages. This isn't hearsay, it's available to see on CAMS Online Manual of Motor Sport right now!


The facts are, very few people (regardless of what they think) can actually weld it properly when used in a roll cage, and it's self hardening, meaning it develops crack of it's own accord, even when welded properly, and without impact. This is why ANDRA in particular have such stringent inspections of CroMo cages. So if you honestly think it's safe to be in a roll cage that slowly tears itself apart, then go nuts, but as of 1st Jan next year, you won't have a choice...

Sorry I found rude about this, but having been involved with roll cage design for some time now, the use of CroMo, when the knowledge of how dangerous it is is out there, it's something that really disturbs me...
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  #15  
Old 24-06-2011, 11:36 AM
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^^^^^ I have just spoken to CAMS tech department and sorry if I sound rude but you are WRONG!!!!!!!!! (at least according to them)

The changes in 2012 will have slight changes to the schedules for Cro Mo cages but they will not be banned and are still approved by the FIA. In fact, CAMS bases their approval of the cages on the FIA standards.

If I (and Rupert at CAMS) are wrong can you point us in the direction of where it is documented that Cro Mo cages will be banned in 2012?

And on topic, I can understand the desire to build your own car. Its not a great economic choice, but neither is owning any race car or car for that matter. But the satisfaction of building your own car and then going and seeing what it can do is very rewarding.
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  #16  
Old 24-06-2011, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CDR RA View Post
If I (and Rupert at CAMS) are wrong can you point us in the direction of where it is documented that Cro Mo cages will be banned in 2012?
http://www.camsmanual.com.au/pdf/10_...e_J_Q211-2.pdf

At table 8.2:
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2012 Sched J says
Cold drawn seamless (CDS) or cold drawn welded (CDW) unalloyed carbon steel
Then again at 8.4:
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2012 Sched J says
The steel shall be cold drawn seamless (CDS) or cold drawn welded (CDW) unalloyed carbon steel
CroMo is most definitely an alloyed steel!

Quote:
Originally Posted by CDR RA View Post
In fact, CAMS bases their approval of the cages on the FIA standards.
Correct you are! That table (and indeed most of the roll cage regulations) is exactly he same as the table on this FIA document:
http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public...12)-080311.pdf
Which again, says:
Quote:
Cold drawn seamless unalloyed carbon steel (see below) containing a maximum of 0.3 % of carbon
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  #17  
Old 24-06-2011, 01:17 PM
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I here what you are saying there but you might have overlooked this one line in the 2012 schedule J.

Quote:
8.5 Material not in Compliance: CAMS may accept other steels and sizes not in compliance with this article through the process of safety cage structure certification.
This very brief one liner opens the door for the process of being able to certify cro mo/T45 cages. You can use a cage structure that is certified to the current FIA standards by a recognised testing agency. But this process does have its pitfalls and you really need to do your homework to be sure the cage you intend to use can be certified. Many assume this is the case because it is advertised as a FIA compliant cage. The reality is (especially with early model cars like a GC8) it might have been a FIA compliant design back in say 2000 when it was originally designed, but since then the design requirements have moved on and the cage doesnt meet CURRENT standards. The cage MUST meet CURRENT standards to be able to be certified. One particular area of change is minimum tube wall thickness. If it doesnt meet this (1.5mm main hoop for memory) it will need to be redesigned and engineered.(Will cost more than the kit cage itself) CAMS will allow the addition of some minor bars and gussets to meet the current stanards. Some of the cage designs have been updated if there is current demand for them but you need to check. CAMS are very helpful in this regard and the simple advice is. Talk to them in detail before your buy your kit.

That aside, schedule J does make it very easy to do a CDS or CDW cage. You just follow the guidelines and no engineering is required. A much more cost effective and simple way to get a very safe cage into your car.
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  #18  
Old 24-06-2011, 01:36 PM
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Yep, I appreciate that, and you're right in everything you've said just then, and I didn't overlook it, but I'm assuming most people fall under one of these two categories:
- Either they're building an FIA compliant cage, which doesn't have that provision. It's black and white in saying no alloyed metals, with no BS we'll-crumble-under-pressure-when-begged-to disclaimer like what CAMS have done with that provision you've quoted.
- Don't want to spend thousands of dollars going through the certification process...

If someone wants to build a non-FIA compliant cage, and go to the expense of getting CAMS to approve a 4130 cage, then they must be nuts.

I'm know the FIA is still homologating cages with T45 due to it's reduced requirement for localized heat treatment after welding (pretty sure most WRC and R2/3 cars run T45 now), but I'm almost 100% sure (though don't quote me) that they won't certify 4130 anymore, due to the known problems with cracking when not properly heat treated post welding. If CAMS in their infinite wisdom want to continue to approve 4130 against the FIA regs which they basically copied in the first, then that's their prerogative, but I'll personally never get in a car with a 4130 cage having seen the catastrophic failures that can occur with them...
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  #19  
Old 24-06-2011, 02:17 PM
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No probs,

and when I say cro mo, what I realy mean is T45. (Apoligies for confusion on that point) And the only T45 kit I would put in is a Custom Cages cage from the UK. If you have the right car (ie. one that they have a currently certified cage for) they come ready to be certified and its just a case of having a competent person weld it in and doing some paperwork with CAMS no different to the paper work you would fill in for a CDS CDW cage build. But I cant stress enough, do your homework in advance on the suitability of their kits as not all of thir kits are candidiates.

There is no other cost in certifying one of these cages if it meets the current standards and you can provide the certification documentation. (Custom Cages will provide this for you) If you are happy to do the legwork you can have a T45 FIA spec cage in your car for the cost of CDW CDS cage and save yourself around 20kg.
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  #20  
Old 24-06-2011, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CDR RA View Post
and when I say cro mo, what I realy mean is T45. (Apoligies for confusion on that point)
AH! Ok, sweet! Now it all makes sense!

I spent half the arvo searching the FIA site for that PDF for nothing!

Though really, T45 is chrome-manganese, not chrome-moly(bdenum)

Have a good weekend all! I'm outta here!
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